Meat is For Assholes

“Chicken nuggets are my family” joked a “leftist” on Twitter in between very truly sincere, deeply important and useful hours and hours of handwringing over US imperialism.

Of course chicken nuggets have everything to do with imperialism, and even fucking Thomas Friedman knows this: “McDonald’s cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas” he famously wrote. But attempting to bring our actual habits into line with our political principles is just sooo liberal, as are, presumably, any misgivings we might have about dropping uncompensated advertising for giant fast food multinationals into streams of robotic, entirely inconsequential outrage over ruling class predation. We can’t do anything til after the rev, kids, which is, um, coming. Til then, bon appétit!

Except where Israel is concerned. Every worthy radical must boycott the one or two Israeli products they might actually consume once or twice a year. Also, make sure that when you haul your affluent fat ass onto a plane for climate-damaging leisure travel, it’s to somewhere other than the zionist entity. And don’t forget to spend hours on Twitter calling out micro-celebrities embarked upon psy ops aimed at their micro-followings. That’s real praxis also.

But don’t even think about withdrawing material support — and free advertising — from an industry that is ruinous to the environment, bad for your health, imperialist in the extreme, and that routinely visits unimaginable cruelty on billions of non-human animals. To do otherwise is not just liberal but also racist, culturally imperialist and anti-labor depending on what unbearably ridiculous booj pseud you listen to.

How I’ve come to hate this nonsense. I actually prefer right-wingers in some ways. So much less vanity if nothing else. And no right-winger anywhere ever cried “cultural imperialism” or “racism” to defend their own filthy, vicious, imperialist habits. Please, if you’re going to be a fucking nihilistic, repulsively childish slob where diet is concerned, at least have the decency to shut the fuck up about it. Tolerance for your bullshit is part of the disease. It’s enabling.  And you’re a useless fraud, to put it nicely. So maybe shut up about everything else while you’re at it.

Even if one puts all meat-related issues aside to focus entirely on climate change,  no self-respecting vegan should feel any reluctance to tell a meat cultist pretending to care about something other than their own appetites, to go fuck themselves. Nor should they indulge lessons in tolerance from moralizing, booj egotists who feel qualified to tell them where and how to draw lines against things that should have been taboo, if not outright illegal, decades ago. Tolerance for nihilistic gluttons is a tactical matter and nothing else. In fact, purely ethical consideration argues overwhelmingly for shaming and more.

Side note: My grocer only sells carrots from Israel which I promise to boycott after the rev. Until then, Israeli carrots are my family.  Come at me, hypocrites.

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190 Responses to Meat is For Assholes

  1. pim says:

    UK suburban angst mainstream comedian Simon Amstell has written and produced what is being marketed as the world’s first vegan film. It’s a comedy (that didn’t make me laugh much). It focuses on compassion but does include mentions of capitalism and exploitation.

    It was made by the BBC. Although only online it is being fairly heavily trailered on TV and radio. Accepting Tarzie’s ideas that animal rights cut to the core of capitalism and that power will only promote it’s own interests (as I am inclined to do) I am wondering what to make of this film.

    • Tarzie says:

      That’s a good question. I’ll have to think on that.

      Thanks for the link.

    • NoLimitSoldEm says:

      I haven’t checked this out yet but I can comment more generally. It’s a complex question and I don’t have a full answer but I’ll give a few relevant thoughts at random.

      Power is not perfectly organised. Capitalists do compete with each other. Karl Marx himself supported working with the some booj elements to overthrow slavery, monarchies and feudal systems and to resist imperialism. I’m not a Marxist, but it’s worth noting. Most Marxists/leftists effectively supporting picking sides but for the Leninists it’s between nation states (and their local capitalists) when it comes to supporting one nation state against imperialism, for other leftists it’s between renewables against fossil fuels, and less often bus-making businesses against ferraris, perhaps even more rarely is supporting vegan against non-vegan industries. Finance capitalists support both fossil fuels and renewables, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t prefer renewables.

      It’s not only capitalists who support advertising and compete with each other, including for vegan and non-vegan products and campaigns. The meat workers guild in Australia supports humane reform like “Ban live export” because it means more local slaughterhouse work (I don’t support these narrow-focus “humane slaughter” campaigns though). The failure of international (or even social nationalism in many countries) means workers are generally allied with the corporations they work for, rather than with other workers. Workers produce lentils/veg and meat, but the former workers are working for workers, the latter not so much.

      However, when (a few) capitalists do support veganism or renewables, they often do so in a way that re-enforces pro-capitalist beliefs and assumptions that are harmful, so we just need to be aware of that and do our our vegan education instead of jumping on the corporate vegan bandwagon too readily. But nor should we reject every fact or pro-vegan rhetoric that happens to come from a corporate source. Rather, I think it is possible to offer qualified semi-support for even corporate vegan propaganda. But much of corporate vegan propaganda does more harm than good imo (even to veganism) so I’m not optimistic about such a film.

      • pim says:


        I take your point that sellers of lentils are capitalists too. In the film the radical mentions are very brief and allusive. It is mostly tearful people, often in therapy, blaming themselves for our sins, which if not overtly pro-capitalist, could be interpreted as diverting from social and political considerations. Ta.

  2. radradio says:

    Somewhat off-topic maybe, but on the subject of animals in context of everyday things people can do:
    We go through > 50.lbs of birdseed a month (and watch the bird feeder on TV all day using a telephoto lens). We rescue baby chicks and hand-feed them, they fly around 1/2 of the house, they have 2 outdoor cages placed at windows and our oldest, a Bluejay, is 18 years old.

    I have a pet Rooster, (not allowed in town but I do anyway) I walk him around the yard, etc, his perch is right here in this room. He’s an indoor pet – has to be since his loud crowing would draw too much attention outside.. When I get sun exposure anytime the sky is clear ~ noon, he walks around with me, but we stay inside during bad weather (he doesn’t like cold, rain or wind)

    Earthlings (COMPLETE MOVIE) animal cruelty treatment fur meat

    Earthlings [2006] [Special Extended Edition] DvDrip [Eng] + 12 languages’ subtitles.torrent

    • Tarzie says:

      Not at all off-topic. It’s funny you mention this because I am suddenly fascinated by birds.


      • pim says:

        Tools, planning and empathy – you got to be fascinated by the corvids. Although she keeps birds in cages (“big cages” though!) Nicola Clayton is informative on this.

      • Tarzie says:

        Yeah, corvids are where my bird love gets obsessive. I want one to adopt me. They’re the coolest cats in the animal kingdom!

        The downside of exploring birds is all the cages. It’s awful.

  3. Tom says:

    One of your weakest point in a long while. You’re deliberately confusing industrial meat production which is indeed horrendous with meat consumption which is a normal part of the cycle of life.
    Or do you think that lions and tigers are morally horrible because they eat animals ?

    • Tarzie says:

      Or do you think that lions and tigers are morally horrible because they eat animals ?

      Translation: I have no idea what the issues are but that won’t deter me from foolishly airing strong opinions as if I’m addressing someone who hasn’t undoubtedly thought much longer and harder on these issues than I have.

      “Cycle of Life” LOL. I love that shit. As good as the bible.

      Learn the basics and then I’ll engage. Start here.

      • Tom says:

        I know the basics, thank you very much.

        You sound like someone who reads about animals from his basement, not someone who’s ever met one.

        Just because capitalism turns everything including food production into an abomination, that does not meat eating meat is morally wrong.

        See here for an example of how to do things properly:

      • Tarzie says:

        I know the basics, thank you very much.

        No, clearly you don’t you ignorant, arrogant fuck or you wouldn’t have introduced non-human carnivores to make your brilliant, gosh I-never-fucking-heard-that-before “circle of life” “argument.” And you continue to make a great show of your complete ignorance. Every fucking thing you have written so far is entirely unresponsive to what animal liberationists believe. It follows that you have no idea what animal liberationist arguments are.

        Go away and read, fool. Start with that link I provided, as it makes very clear what a complete ass you are making of yourself, using another arrogant, ignorant ass as example.

        Really fucker, go and read something before you dick up my comments one more time.

      • No soy yo says:

        Love the low carb quack site/organization on the steering committee of your “Regenerative agriculture” organization. Carbs are brain food. You should try them sometime.

      • No soy yo says:

        My comment was directed at Tom ^ of course–got out of place.

        This guy’s organization is on steering committee of group that conveniently believes that grazing stops climate change:

        “He wrote the best-selling books The No-Grain Diet (with Alison Rose Levy) and The Great Bird Flu Hoax.”
        (his latest book is “Fat for Fuel”)

        The top article on the Mercola site at the moment is “The Many Health Benefits of Whole Body Vibrational Training,” and of course this requires purchase of a “WBVT device such as the Power Plate.”

    • Linbiao420 says:

      Tom? Baby Fed Dad?

      • Tarzie says:

        you get more cryptic every day

      • Linbiao420 says:

        I know I got a really great reason though

      • Linbiao420 says:

        I hope it is Tom because I’d love to have a dialogue on reverting and jacketing instead of the scurrying vermin shit his clique does whenever you shine the light on them.

        But if he wants to do the Baby Fed Dad (yes he has a Fed Dad, much like BA has a Cop Dad he “doesn’t talk to”) irony boy thing here you’re going to save a lot of time by not engaging with a failson impersonating a Muslim when it suits him.

      • Tarzie says:

        This is fascinating, but I can’t imagine what makes you think it’s him.

        Who is BA?

      • Linbiao420 says:


      • Hummus says:

        Years of familiarity with writing style, using something ancient and tired and still believing it’s clever.

        BA is BlackAutonomist on Twitter, PSL scenester in NYC. Since entities like these are welded to their smartphones in their “activism” there is unfortunately upcoming crossover in my life.

      • Tarzie says:

        using something ancient and tired and still believing it’s clever.

        if you say so, but that’s also the MO of every troll I’ve ever met. I’m digging the intrigue, though.

        I’d kinda like to meet these operators in real life, just to give them the smell test. Connor Kilpatrick once told me that David Graeber doesn’t pass. I’m tempted to say that Connor probably doesn’t pass either, but my money’s on useful idiot there.

      • Hummus says:

        I’m either right

        Or I’m not and I put too few croutons in my salad.

        Mostly I’m fascinated by some of the shit that happened the last week or so in serious internet activism and it was how fast and how unified they were in trying to copjacket RK, a waste of time but that’s what you want to burn people out on dumb internet beefs.

        Who engaged in the jacketing and produced a lot of “evidence” that “Molly did it” that we were supposed to take on the strength of their word and who did not want to support it further when pressed?

        @fivek: Taryn Fivek, WWP, Goon poster discipline/Khamsek, Muslim revert of convenience and ex-gf of

        @TomLeftEvil/BabyFinland/Linbiao420, racist, mugged by a black man in college, another dubious Muslim convert, has Fed Dad, allegedly sexually abused Fivek but they continue to share mutual friends, some of which he continues to podcast with at the Rhizzone. Loathe to bring it up but the fact he has not been ostracized over the abuse by his comrades makes me suspect it’s a fabrication to be used as a cudgel.

        Bryan Conlon/@Cato_of_utica: Goon, DSA, paid Dem organizer, probably slimiest position shifter on Twitter. One day he’s a communist, next you have to vote and it has to be for the Democrats, then he’s an anarchowhatever.

        @BlackAutonomist: cop dad, PSL, token.

        And this is just the beginning, but they all very quickly and without verification of anything uniformly attacked RK for a very flaccid doxx that could only be considered a doxx under the loosest terms, when doxxing is something they don’t care about as long as they’re the ones doing it.

      • Tarzie says:

        Gotcha. I noticed a while ago that there’s always a crew of usual suspects meting out discipline and creating drama constantly. The names change but the hornet’s nest is always there. The fluidity of their politics definitely seems to be a tell, but then that’s also a tell of social climbing and quotidian politicking.

      • Hummus says:

        I think RK is a little too old to be making joke “Mike Jones” email accounts to “harass Fivek’s mother, who is just perpetually in tears over everything”

        Back to the topic of ancient unclever things, WHO IS MIKE JONES is awful joke you’d be making in 2017 as a clueless white boy.

    • Dan says:

      Humans, unlike lions and tigers, have the intelligence level to know they don’t need to eat animals – yet still do.

      • Tarzie says:

        Not to quibble, but if lions and tigers had our intelligence, they would rightfully conclude that they need to eat meat. The logic of animal rights gives genuine carnivores a pass.

  4. jason says:

    i had the distinct displeasure of working for these assholes for a few months
    one thing I learned though was how these truck stops scramble for WIC & SNAP dollars.

    you don’t eat meat? good for you. hasn’t kept you from being a self-righteous ignorant know what’s best for all prick.

    just how are the non-booj meat eaters supposed to react your to hellfire droning on about your own virtue? do you think this is appealing for your cause?

    anybody who says eating an unfertilized chicken egg or a piece of cheez is the same moral category as killing a cow or a child is seriously deluded. deluded about the self-importance above all of their little beliefs.

    I say little b/c while prancing & flexing in the mirror to your own virtue you boast of your hypocrisy. maybe you are more like glenn greenwald than you realize? screaming down other people, not from an army of trolls, but from the heights of your own superiority.

    sorry, those people buying SPAM w/their SNAP dollars from the only place in their ‘hood where they can get food, their local truck stop, could care less about your fucking diet.

    and nice jabs at BDS. some of not eating stuff is anti-imperlialsm. some is posturing. who decides?

    • Tarzie says:

      anybody who says eating an unfertilized chicken egg or a piece of cheez is the same moral category as killing a cow…is seriously deluded

      or they might know that the dairy and meat industries are one industry. The male that didn’t fertilize that egg was tortured and eaten. That cheese was made from milk a veal calf brutally taken from his deeply attached mom didn’t drink. Vegetarians are the worst kind of self-indulgent, having it both ways hypocrites. Arguably worse than unrepentant meatheads by virtue of their deeply stupid, half-assed take on animal exploitation.

      As to the rest…zzz. Your broken record about virtue signaling is a thousand times more self righteous and supercilious than classic virtue signaling, especially when you risibly invoke “non-booj meat-eaters” as if you give a fuck. You’re as fake as any asshole bleating about food deserts and cultural imperialism. Faker even because you perform an above-it-all down to earthness.

      My post was clearly directed at self-styled booj class traitors whining incessantly about foreign policy over which rank and filers have zero influence. But just for the record, non-booj meat eaters suck also. Having grown up non-booj, I credit my ilk with brains and a capacity for ethics. Since you don’t, I’ll assume you began life higher up, which also makes you more likely to see political convictions as inauthentic, status-conscious ethical fluidity being the sea the middle class swims in from womb to tomb. To a certain extent, everyone in the imperial core is an exploitative imperialist brat drunk on individualism. They should be struggling against it and if they aren’t, well then, fuck them too.

      I don’t care what’s best for everyone else. I know what’s best for animals and the planet based on good science that is accessible to practically any literate person and that’s what matters.

      • jason says:

        sorry. I know something about farming. not learned in the ivory tower you seem to think i’m gazing down from. not all egg beating comes about thru rooster torturing & veal.

        you completely jettisoned any class analysis in this tirade. Donald trump & his gold-plated steak is just as bad as that kid shoplifting something beside (glyphosate-saturated) tofu to stave off his hunger. fuck that.

        you didn’t come to the place where you no longer buy canned meat all by your lonesome. so calm the fuck down.

        i work as a janitor. very depressing & infuriating. ending the consumption of meat is no more urgent than ending the ever increasing piles of plastic garbage. or the automobile. or nukes.

        you are not being on the side of the earth w/this petty, insulting, frothing posturing.

      • Tarzie says:

        Sorry. I know something about farming. not learned in the ivory tower you seem to think i’m gazing down from. not all egg beating comes about thru rooster torturing & veal.

        No shit, but most of it does. And, regardless, all animal farming is exploitative, dirty and entirely unnecessary. There is no kind way to keep a cow. And you’re having lived on a farm imparts no authority to dispute that. It does explain how you come by your support for commodifying animals though. I guess I should ask an oil man about whether I should swap my bike for a car, too. Also, did you not notice that this started with a booj radical making light of his chicken nugget consumption while robotically signaling his deep anti-imperialism? So in what way is anything you’ve offered to the conversation relevant?

        you completely jettisoned any class analysis in this tirade. Donald trump & his gold-plated steak is just as bad as that kid shoplifting something beside (glyphosate-saturated) tofu to stave off his hunger. fuck that.

        LOL “class analysis.” The hackneyed, shitty radical trick of invoking imagined poor folks to leverage your non-argument is not class analysis. And who equated Trump with your laughably Dickensian shoplifter? Nobody, you disingenuous creep. I simply said that being poor, particularly in a the relative terms of “poor in the US” does not preclude veganism or any other kind of principled living. I know this from actual experience. You’re the one that wants to write off poor people as dumb, lazy primitives, not me.

        you didn’t come to the place where you no longer buy canned meat all by your lonesome. so calm the fuck down.

        Who the fuck said I did? But the fact is, almost everyone with any empathy at all is ambivalent about meat consumption and from a very early age. Which is why we are inundated from childhood on with fake nutrition facts and scrupulously protected from the grisly details of where our food comes from. You don’t need a Ph d to have that ambivalence — or to find ways to resolve it — and you’re a fucking snob, janitor or no. And once again, can you fucking focus — asshole — on who this post was directed at? People who undoubtedly know better and yet think McDonald’s is fucking funny.

        Surely they didn’t come by their anti-imperialism all by their lonesome either. Perhaps they should calm the fuck down about liberals who recite state dept boilerplate about Syria. It’s hilarious when people who spend entire days demonizing anyone who disagrees with them on any plank of their worldview as “fascist” get all preachy about civility with militant vegans. You want a left culture where we’re all open-minded about politics we find deplorable on the grounds that we didn’t get here on our lonesome? Fine. You start by keenly feeling the pain of proletarian nazis.

        ending the consumption of meat is no more urgent than ending the ever increasing piles of plastic garbage. or the automobile. or nukes.

        Well actually I think you can make a case that meat eating is the worst of all those things, but since they’re all important, why bother to consider them against each other except to overwhelm oneself into the comfort of doing absolutely fuck all about any of them? Surely you agree that people should recycle. Surely you also agree that if it is practical for them to do so, they should use bikes and public transportation rather than cars. They probably can’t do anything about nukes, but should maybe err on the side advocacy. If we agree on all of this, doesn’t it make sense for people who recycle and reduce car use and oppose nukes to also stop eating meat and dairy? If this doesn’t make sense to you, it means you think eating meat is less urgent than any of these things, and if that’s the case, I think you’re obliged to make a case for that. So far you haven’t come close to demonstrating anything other than a risible self-unawareness with respect to the shitty, abusive way you entered the fray via your whining about my serving it right back to you.

    • Tarzie says:

      sorry, those people buying SPAM w/their SNAP dollars from the only place in their ‘hood where they can get food, their local truck stop, could care less about your fucking diet.

      Right, and the appropriate place for radical, er rather, liberal outrage is at vegans who wish they’d eat better, not a system that limits their food options and brainwashes them into thinking spam is a better choice than, say, beans and rice, also available at the truck stop. Also, I call bullshit on most food deserts. Got a bike? A backpack? I venture your food desert problem is pretty easily solved. Or is it elitist to expect people to exert any energy on the way to being better, healthier people?

      You clearly don’t respect or give a fuck about these imagined unfortunates apart from their use as a cudgel against vegans. So suck my virtuous dick, phony.

      True story: the only times, literally, I have ever seen the concept of food deserts invoked by lefties is in the context of dressing down vegans. Internet radicals say NOTHING about food distribution issues otherwise.

      and nice jabs at BDS. some of not eating stuff is anti-imperlialsm. some is posturing. who decides?

      Maybe you should actually read what I wrote. The jab is clearly at “radicals” who variously support and reject the very idea of boycotts and, more generally, pre-revolutionary individual acts, depending on the cause in question. Boycott Israel? Good! Boycott meat and dairy? Counter-revolutionary distraction! Boycotts don’t work!

      By all means, boycott Israel. But if you’re also making light of how much McDonald’s you eat while excoriating people who say mean things about Assad, you’re a fat, damn, pathetic fucking joke. Undoubtedly, for 99% of the internet lefties I’m doing all this virtue signaling for, my unwillingness to make a separate trip for non-Israeli carrots, is OBVIOUSLY much worse than their 24/7, 365 dpy support for meat and dairy. Because they’re assholes. My clear fucking point, idiot.

      If my interest is virtue signaling, I think maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree, given how few are more despised than unrepentantly militant vegans. Maybe I just really can’t stand these people for really good reasons? Does it ever occur to you that virtue signalers might just actually have convictions? If that’s a hard sell for you, perhaps it means you have none of your own.

      • jason says:

        hard to read thru the foam. i’ll go work on it.

      • Tarzie says:

        hard to read thru the foam.

        Oh I do so love when assholes show up here hurling invective and get all victimy when I hurl some back. Or was calling me a “prick…prancing & flexing in the mirror to [my] own virtue” meant as a compliment? Self-aware much, shithead? At least I don’t pretend I’m more civil than I am.

        Yeah, keep working through the foam. It’s not like everyone reading this knows you’re a lost cause or anything.

      • jason says:

        we should go on the jerry springer show. perform these scripted lines.

        same shit. he can spring a surprise guest: mr chicken mcnuggets himself!

        and then he can bring out a bloated diabetic 10 year old urban or rural youth to ask why he can’t stop eating the chicken mcnuggets.

        “i don’t know what’s in ’em. I just know I can’t stop eatin’ ’em.”

        & bring out an addiction counselor to help him rearrange his inner psychic space. w/help from the audience about how he needs to respect himself.

        it’s not just meat tarzie. the meat is not even meat. it’s a malnourishing addiction vector.

        but yeah, screech about murder. i’ll remember that when i’m dumpster diving later this weekend.

        it’d be fun to kick your puppy just to watch the hysterics. look at the Stalinist vegan messiah! and laugh. he knows what’s best for the planet. pardon me while I chomp a sausage. and rub the smelling salts under your nose.

        now ban me.

      • Tarzie says:

        now ban me.

        ok, I will, and you can scurry away, convinced that you’ve “touched a nerve” rather than written non-stop drivel that doesn’t in any way respond to anything I wrote, except to call me a prick and whine about how poorly I’ve treated little wonderful you.

        or I could keep you around hoping that, like the chimp at a typewriter or a stopped clock, you might emit something useful. i know from past experience you’re not a total loss, especially when you post as Robert. and maybe if you keep driveling, I’ll figure out why so-called lefties go to such lengths, and make such asses of themselves, running interference for agribusiness while never once even pretending to hazard a cogent argument. Why not just go full capitalist? Calling me ‘stalinist’ shows you have potential.

        It’s not just meat tarzie. the meat is not even meat. it’s a malnourishing addiction vector.

        and malnourishing addiction vectors don’t feel pain, nor love their children, nor displace rain forests, nor harm the environment. heavy, man. Yer a fuckin’ genius.

        and rub the smelling salts under your nose.

        ok this embarrasses me on your behalf which is more sympathy than you deserve. please fucking stop Fisher Kingly God of Wokeness.

        for a dumpster-diving janitor, you do a great impression of a self-adoring, pretentious, middle class liberal. It’s uncanny. Is robert a janitor also or just jason?

      • jason says:

        hurray! it wasn’t the first time.

  5. radradio says:

    re: eggs and milk

    I had 3 pet chickens before the rooster. They all died naturally of old age, but laid hundreds of eggs over the years which we collected and gave to the neighbors, ‘urban chickens’ except they were indoor pets as well just like the rooster is..

    I grew up a farm, the cow required hand milking every morning, or she would start mooing really loud (cows have to be milked or it builds up and becomes painful to them, and chickens lay the eggs regardless of what you do with them) Most people can’t hand milk their own cow, but can keep pet chickens. Having ‘farm animals’ as pets connects people with them making them less likely to see them as ‘nuggets’. In most places you can have up to 6 chickens (varies)

    food deserts- although we attached a wagon to one of the bikes, it’s really hilly here, I found it’s better to take the bus to the only decent store (Aldi) which is all the way across town.

    Carrots have very few calories and beta-carotene is about the only nutrient to speak of, so focusing on that tiny apartheid state over them, while 10’s of billions of lives are snuffed out every year globally on the menu of capitalism, seems disingenuous to me.

    Rice (often even organic) is high in Arsenic, I suggest white corn instead, who’s amino acids compliment beans almost perfectly as well.

    • Tarzie says:

      I don’t know what point you’re making with some of this.

      I have no real objection to people keeping chickens so long as they take good care of them and don’t slaughter them when they stop being useful. But kind chicken-keepers don’t impart any justification to the 99% of chicken and egg eaters that aren’t kind. Nor do they make a case for the commodification of animals generally.

      A way to relieve the cow of having to be milked is to quit impregnating her. There is no kind way to keep a milk cow. It is inherently abusive. The good news is that bovine milk is really really bad for humans.

      Yes carrots aren’t the most nutrient dense vegetable, but there is more to whole plant foods than the roster of nutrients they provide. It’s entirely beside the point I was making, regardless.

      You don’t need to combine aminos. Vegans get plenty of protein and have fewer nutritional deficiencies on average than meat and dairy eaters.

    • No soy yo says:

      Laying an egg is very painful for the hen. She also loses a lot of nutrients. They keep laying them because humans take them. If you leave the egg and break it a little (all this is only necessary because we are raising domesticated animals, so I’m talking about folks who rescue them), the hen sees it’s broken and *she* eats it, replacing some lost nutrients. And production also goes down.

      Cows produce milk because they gave birth to a calf. Where’s the calf? How did the cow get pregnant? You make it seem like hens and pregnant cows just appear out of nowhere, and humans weren’t involved.

      Treating an animal like an object for human use makes people see nonhuman animals as existing for human use (even “pets” that humans truly love). I don’t buy your reasoning.

      Cook rice like pasta and you reduce the arsenic by up to 80%. (rinse well, cook in 5 parts boiling water to 1 part rice). Soaking it for 24 hours reduces arsenic even more. Ideally one should limit rice if possible, but animal products are at the top of the food chain and have higher levels of all sorts of poisons in addition to the “natural” IGF-1 and bovine growth hormone and casein, etc. So if the choice is between rice and meat, rice is almost definitely healthier. Rice from California, Thailand, China has less arsenic. Potatoes are great for environment and humans. And cheap. Lots of starches to choose from. Oats are also very cheap and satiating. Whole wheat pasta is fine.

      re. reducing arsenic in rice:

      Oh, and while I’m here; Tom: If you seriously make your dietary and ethical choices based on what lions do, then I’ll buy you an entire cow. You just need to chase after it, and tear into it with your teeth. And keep eating it (raw of course) for several days as it sits in the hot sun. And you can never eat a vegetable again. I hope you don’t have any stepchildren since you surely killed and ate them. Nature!

      Circle of life — I saw it in a Disney movie!

  6. radradio says:

    As part of animal rescue efforts with wild birds hatchlings, we save chickens from the factory life and slaughter, as pets not food. Indoors not out in a chicken coop too.

    It was my job to milk the cow, I didn’t have control or knowledge over where she came from, etc as a child, but she insisted I milk her, and she’d follow me around, I’d give her treats while weeding the garden. I treated her like a pet too.. If she was unhappy she could kick the milk bucket over anytime she wanted, and walk away. She liked being milked..

    But again very few cows are treated this way and family farms are becoming rare. Pet chickens however are surprisingly common – if you do a google image search for ‘pet chicken’ or ‘indoor chicken’ you’ll see people doting over them, forums where they talk warmly about how dear they are to them, etc..

    As pets – specifically indoor pets and living their full lifespan, saved from factories or people who see them as tonight’s dinner, is the only situation I’m suggesting. Roosters are especially rare since they’re not even allowed due to the noise.

    I bet not 1 out of a billion roosters survive hatching (in factories all the male chicks are immediately killed – 1/2 the eggs, which is over 6 billion a year just in this country. (12 billion eggs, 6 billion male chicks destroyed each year)

    This rooster hatched on my sister’s farm, we didn’t even know it was a male when she gave it to me. She just didn’t want it (she was moving and got rid of all the chickens) I said sure – we only later figured out he’s a rooster when he started crowing. But he was my pet by the,n so I kept him anyway – I don’t care whether he lays eggs or not since I don’t eat them anyway..

    my point

    I mention this only to serve as an example and suggestion – when you have these animals around you, you stop seeing them as objects or food and see them in a better light. He bites me sometimes, but I just pick him up, pet him then set him down. He snoozes on my lap. Daily.

    Having pets isn’t a black-and-white experience, there are shades of affection, protection and bonding. When I call him, he comes running. He follows me around, I also pick him up and carry him sometimes – he acts much like a small dog. The chickens did too..

    So what I’m suggesting is the best way to express concern for animals in a way other people can relate to, is to encourage them to have the animals they’ve been eating as ‘nuggets’, as pets. They will then see for themselves, and the idea of eating them will naturally become revolting to them. The next best thing is to show these people how the animals are treated – which is why I posted the documentary first thing.. Watching it also encourages empathy and possibly the desire again to bond with them.

    PS did you catch this in the film?
    “as long as there are slaughter houses, there will always be battlefields”

    • NoLimitSoldEm says:

      I think you are getting the causation a bit mixed up. If someone thinks “chicken nuggets are my family now” is funny, they don’t give a shit about animals. If they get a pet, it would be for their own pleasure. Even if they got rescue, it would be to make themselves feel better about their meat eating. Even if it did somehow lead to veganism, it won’t lead their quicker than just telling people to be vegan.

      It odd to hear the “cows like to be milked line” from someone who claims to be vegan, although it is surprising how often Earthlings support humane vegetarianism. As Tarzie already pointed, you can just stop impregnating cows and they won’t be in pain anymore from the excess milk nor grieving for the calf that was taken from them. It makes little sense for a principled vegan to be rosy eyed about “family farms”. Non-vegan family farms generally involve breeding animals and killing the males to eat them, and either killing the females too or raising them and impregnating them again to eat their reproductive organs, which only the stupidest families would waste resources on these days, since it’s now widely known that it’s unhealthy, inefficient and environmentally destructive anyway.

      I realised non-veganism is wrong after getting backyard chickens for their eggs, but it’s something I regret, and I don’t see evidence that even rescue animals are the best way to convert people to veganism. I’d rather they learn from my mistakes and just go vegan immediately. I certainly would have been vegan earlier if more people had been telling me so with a rational principled argument with facts about the inherent cruelty, environment and health issues, instead of all the pussy footing around the issue.

      You also seem very keen to convince yourself that your rooster loves being captive in your house. He may be better off that he would be if you set him loose on the streets, but it’s hardly an ideal situation for any animal to be captive and it should not be glorified.

  7. So Far Right says:

    Fuck Trump. Fuck the war mongers. Fuck the idiots who think this military adventure is going to turn out different than any of the other ones.

    • Tarzie says:


      It really is bizarre how this scenario repeats itself again and again. I get that there’s a huge propaganda apparatus, but come on!

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        I don’t think I understand this part. You mean the hand-wringing implies they’re think it’s going to turn out differently? Maybe I don’t understand the definition of hand-wringing. Is it something separate to “fuck the war-mongers”?

  8. radradio says:

    to: No soy yo (and NoLimitSoldEm too I see)

    We thought the black chicken had stopped laying eggs for a few weeks, but eventually I figured out what was going on. She was laying her eggs under a bush outside and they were collecting there! There were over 2 dozen and they were beginning to go bad (hot weather) – and she was still laying them too, one was even still wet when I found them.

    I read that a hen will lay only ~ a dozen, then turn ‘broody’, but this wasn’t happening.

    When they did turn broody (over winter for example) we didn’t care. these weren’t laying hens, they were pets..

    So while some (many) people do encourage laying and even force molt we didn’t. Allowing the eggs to accumulate and go rotten wasn’t the solution either. Golf balls were.

    I figured out that they’d live longer if I let them brood on fake eggs. I’m in the process now of seeing how long this rooster will live. I never lost a hen to predators either.

    Think of the chicken as you do a cherished pet. People do worry about their lifespan and how happy they are.

    Re: rooster ‘captive’ in the house.
    He likes being inside, during bad weather I can’t even get him to come out with me when I feed the birds. He insists on roosting on his favorite perch, otherwise he raises a fuss. That perch is 10 feet away from me sleeping right here, (he wants me in sight) and he wakes me up every morning 2 hours before dawn crowing.. The house is big. He’s free to roam through 7 rooms. only 4 are off-limits.

    He would have been dead if I hadn’t adopted him.

    As far as the cow, that was one specific circumstance. Taking care of the animals became my responsibility, my sisters refused to do it. As children we had no control over the decisions our parents made. My dad once skinned a rabbit. In front of us. We heard it squeal. Mom prepared it for dinner and we all 3 REFUSED to eat it. Dad never killed another rabbit after that. We had to figure out what to do with all the milk, it couldn’t be allowed to go to waste. We made butter, cheese, gave it to the dog, and so on.

    I can’t take back or re-live what happened in the past, only relate that these situations do happen. Kid’s grow up on farms, and have to deal with the hand that’s dealt them. I only mentioned it as an example that it’s not a black and white issue, but a person can still always try to make the best of it, and learning by positive example seems a better way to encourage that, than taking an absolutism attitude, far removed from real situations and the people forced to live in them.

    Ideally, yes, no hens would ever lay unfertilized eggs, and half the flock would also be roosters (but they’d fight) and so on.

    – They should all be widely scattered in the woods, as they evolved..

    But in the present world, the best you can do is save as many as you can, let them live their full lifetime, keep them indoors like pets, bond with them, and show them to visitors to set an example.

    so that’s what we do

    ..the rooster attacks people, I have to hold him when people come over 😉

    rinsing rice washes away almost all the nutrients out of it turning it into junk food (nutrient poor, empty calories)

    I suggested white corn because it’s less likely to be GMO and doesn’t require rinsing.. American Indian’s traditional diet consists of maze and beans..

    Potatoes have the highest total pesticide amount by weight, than any other food, see:

    “EWG’s 2017 Shopper’s Guide to Pesticides in Produce”

    So hopefully you’re referring to organic potatoes only..

    > choice is between rice and meat

    no, rice or corn.

    • No soy yo says:

      I never said that a hen will stop laying eggs. I said that you, the human (since humans are responsible for her predicament), needs to make a small crack in the egg so she will see that it’s not viable. Then she will usually eat the egg. This returns some of the lost nutrients to her from the egg-laying. Production will often decline (maybe every other day). She won’t stop.

      If you eat the eggs or give the eggs to someone, that’s just seeing the hen as an object. My father grew up raising chickens. Hated killing them. He didn’t eat chicken. He ate every other animal product, including eggs. Everyone else in our house ate chicken while my father complained. People “love” dogs and eat cows. People “love” dogs and buy them from puppy mills. People “love” dogs and feed them dog food made from dogs. People “love” dogs and turn them into work dogs. Learning to love chickens at most will stop people from eating chicken. They’ll just steal the eggs and eat beef. Or, one of my favorites, “for ethical reasons, 70% of my calories come from baby sheep.”

      Rinsing rice rinses “almost all the nutrients.” What? Versus “converting” it which is pre-boiling and I don’t know what else (look in wiki) and only removes around 30% of vitamins? This obsession with getting enough nutrients is really silly. Eating vegan will take care of the fiber deficiency. Eat starchy vegetable, green/yellow vegetables (greens are great), fruit. Maybe legumes. If you want, add flax seed. Weekly vitamin B12. Sun. People make it seem so difficult but those are the same people whose family members are McNuggets or who are eating 1500 calories of lamb a day, or think “dwarf wheat” is the biggest health threat there is.

      The Dirty Dozen isn’t scientific: they take a bunch of different numbers and ones with higher numbers get on the list regardless of qualitative differences. Organic is surely much better for the workers, though “organic” just means “doesn’t have a listed pesticide.” Probably better for consumer. There are some more effective ways to remove pesticides in addition to washing (yikes! Yes I wash fruit and veggies!). But first rule is starch, veggies, fruit. Like I said there are lots of starches, not just corn, beans and rice. Then if you have access and funds, sure, organic.

    • NoLimitSoldEm says:

      I’m not surprised that the rooster would prefer being inside to being out in the open. “Chickens” are domesticated red junglefowl and hate being out in the open because they are afraid of birds of prey and other predators. Their natural habitat is a dense rainforest with plenty of foliage between themselves and predators. Effectively pets are still captive, even if they are better off that way than the available alternatives. I’ve kept non-laying chickens myself in the best conditions possible. They were given plenty of space and chose to hide in the bushes & keep their distance from all larger animals unless they were hungry or I was digging in which case they might approach. This is their natural behaviour. If they have no chicken friends they may attempt to bond with humans, or if they have been trained to do so for food. Some breeds may have been bred for slightly more friendliness to overcome their natural fear of larger animals, but unlike dogs most chickens have been mostly bread for use as food so most breeds are just hyper-laying or faster-growing versions of wild red junglefowl.

      I don’t see evidence that idealising pet ownership necessarily is the best way to lead people to veganism, since pet ownership generally is connected to breeding for a profit, treating animals as property etc. I don’t object to people keeping rescue animals (or any animal that is already in their care). But I think we should make a clear distinction between rescues and buying animals bred for a profit, although sometimes animals are bred or taken captive and then sold as rescues, so there are many reasons not to idealise the idea of buying any animals advertised as rescues, or pet ownership generally.

      • radradio says:

        This borders on splitting hairs, and walking back the original accusation, with a dash of strawman thrown in. The claim has went from the rooster in fact being captive, to now not being surprised he prefers being inside. The distinction has blurred between what his intention is vs mine, though really they’re both the same – he wants to be safe and I want to keep him safe.

        One of the chickens was still alive when he was young, he didn’t prefer her company to mine, in fact she chased him around (pecking order in play – she was bigger) I had to protect him from her, he came running to me for protection from the species you’re claiming he should prefer to bond with. And even when he grew bigger than her, she still dominated him, he allowed her to because he grew up that way.

        When you actually experience animal behavior first-hand yes indeed you do get a different perspective than surmising or second-hand impressions while also developing a bond which other people see (look he doesn’t eat chickens he plays with them, maybe I should re-think my attitude of seeing them as nuggets)

        – the reason Gilbert snoozes on my lap isn’t because he lacks some giant chicken to snooze on, it’s because we’ve bonded and I’m big enough for him to. He humps shoes and treats the smaller birds like chicks, as far as other behaviors go.

        One striking impression other people see is him attacking strangers while sleeping on my lap. Many people are afraid of animals, so this shows by example how tame they can be – that last chicken was completely wild, within a few months she was sitting calmly on my arm. The person I got her from swore up and down she could never be tamed (he always grabbed her by the legs upside down like they typically do) He was SHOCKED when he saw her on my arm just a few months later..

        All you have to do is be nice to them I told him, treat them with respect. He dismissed my advice until he saw it with his own eyes.. And respect is what this whole issue is about in the first place .

        Animals don’t bond with what species you happen to think they should, they bond with whoever *bonds with them*

        Whether you wish to apply moral absolutisms to that is up to you, but I can say from experience, people seeing such bonding makes a far greater positive impression on them than preaching at them, especially when the ‘wild’ bird gets on their finger from yours..

        It connects people with both food animals and nature. (We have Bluejays and Starlings that tame) These connections and experiences ‘de-objectify’ the animals in ways words don’t have the power to ever do.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        “The claim has went from the rooster in fact being captive, to now not being surprised he prefers being inside.” Haha. These are completely compatible. I believe both and I explained why. It’s logically equivalent to saying “my pet fish prefers being in the nicer tank to being in the bigger empty tank, therefore it’s not captive in the nice tank”. If there was such a thing as a rescue fish, and there were some good reason not to release them into the wild, I’m still not sure if it would be the best way to make people go vegan. I’ve never had an emotional or social attachment to a cow, or a sheep or a pig or a fish, certainly not to an oyster, but I’m vegan. I’m not saying you doing anything wrong to the rooster; it sounds like you’re doing the best you can; but you do seem to be projecting stuff onto the rooster and glorifying pets generally. I’m sorry but I’m not that interested in the anecdotes. they don’t prove much even if I could be 100% certain they’re all true. But I can’t read all of your comment. Perhaps my fault for seeming more interested in the private life of one individual than I actually am. I’m interested in general rules and principles and not basing them one internet strangers anecdotes. But here’s my personal story. I’m a vegan. Before I was a vegan, I wasn’t a vegan. People preaching to me (as long as it was rational) was actually persuasive for me, as was the nutrtional and envirionmental science, and having “free range” captive at my residence only helped to the extent that I regretted it. Sorry to have encouraged you to waste your breath.

  9. Tarzie says:

    you completely jettisoned any class analysis in this tirade. Donald trump & his gold-plated steak is just as bad as that kid shoplifting something beside (glyphosate-saturated) tofu to stave off his hunger. fuck that.

    I’m going to return to this because the pretense of caring more about the poor and people of color on the way to defending one’s own privileges, appetites and biases, is easily the most sickening of all disingenuous lefty tricks, and in relation to veganism, is particeularly ridiculous and shameless.

    Consider the following, and then let’s talk about who’s ignoring class and race.

    In the United States, preventable diseases associated with high meat and dairy consumption, such as diabetes, hypertension and heart disease, overwhelmingly impact poor Black people more than any other demographic.

    The meat industry locates production facilities in poor communities both to secure a cheap labor pool for extremely dangerous, poorly paid work and to limit political opposition to things like spraying vaporized animal shit into the air. Conditions in meat plants are notoriously bad and laborers in them are overwhelmingly poor, Black and latin.

    Animal agriculture destroys rain forests and with them the communities that live in and around them.

    Animal agriculture forces poor countries to dedicate limited land and resources to production for meat and dairy consumers in rich countries.

    Animal agriculture is a major contributor to climate change, the impact of which is felt most acutely by poor people.

    Now given the above, who’s ignoring race and class? Critics of an industry that visits disease, destruction and death overwhelmingly on poor people of color, or the mostly white, mostly affluent “radicals” who run interference for this industry, by baselessly accusing militant vegans of racism, elitism and cultural imperialism while making disgustingly minimizing jokes about Chicken McNuggets?

    Is this really subject to debate? Sadly yes. That’s how painstakingly worthless the US “left” is.

    • No soy yo says:

      Most of the world is lactose intolerant. The biggest exception as a group? Europeans.

    • NoLimitSoldEm says:

      This is awesome. Anti-vegans are so dumb. The word “plants” in “The meat industry locates plants in poor communities” did throw me for a few seconds though.

    • Russ says:

      All true but just part of the truth. Substitute “industrial agriculture” for “animal agriculture” (and “commodity consumers” for “meat and dairy consumers”) and you’d have the whole truth. You’d also fulfill the anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist elements of the trio you adduced.

      I agree the “left” is worthless which is why I jettisoned all that a while ago. I’m part of the food movement and define myself as an abolitionist of industrial agriculture and a writer on behalf of the necessary agroecological transformation.

      It seems like since you express such dissatisfaction with “the left” you might do better to jettison all that as well, including the way your own discussions of veganism and animal agriculture suffer from all the usual pathologies of when “political” types who are ignorant of food and agriculture talk about these. (Like your bizarre and callous denial of food deserts, for example. (No, many of the working poor have neither bikes nor the ability to carry many bags of groceries on a bike nor the time to take that long trip anyway.) In that you’re just the flip side of the stupid leftists you excoriate. Meanwhile in the comment above you touch on the existence of whole countries which are food deserts. The same increasingly applies anywhere where money is scarce. Where money is scarce, access to food is scarce, physically as well as financially. That’ll get worse for as long as corporate industrial agriculture, the most pivotal capitalist sector, has dominion.)

      • Tarzie says:

        (Like your bizarre and callous denial of food deserts, for example.

        I didn’t deny them, though I could have been more nuanced and precise in the language I used. It was implicit in my reply that solving the problem of a food desert requires a bike and the means to use one. I never said that everyone has a bike or the means and for those who don’t a food desert is a bigger deal. Perhaps my lack of nuance owes to having been poor myself in cities and never unable to access food far more nourishing than the spam in the truck stop example. Food desert talk also conjures up businesses which seemingly sell only meat, dairy and junk food. This is something else I never saw in my years in the urban poor.

        The fact remains that I never hear food deserts invoked so much, or even really at all, except when someone is dressing down vegans for their callous objection to a diet that sickens and kills poor people, or for gingerly suggesting that poor and working class people in the imperial core are not entirely disobliged nor entirely incapable of considering their actions in relation to their and their children’s health and to people and creatures even lower on the capitalist exploitation chain than they are.

        These rituals never even pay lip service to the idea that THE problem is the food desert, not vegan insensitivity to them, and the implicitly endorsed opinion is that poor people should be left in peace to poison themselves on the expensive garbage white supremacy and capitalism have put within easy reach. This is no doubt because these discussions aim not at solving the problems of the poor but at borrowing their apparent immunity from ethical food decisions for affluent lefty shitheads with the means to eat whatever they like. I will continue to despise people who insist on these rituals without your permission, thank you very much, and thank you in advance for not continuing to change the subject on their behalf out of, what, residual class loyalty?

        Once again, I am forced to remind readers that my post was clearly directed at people who know the deal and can make choices accordingly but instead do free advertising for McDonald’s while lamenting imperialism. I would certainly take a kinder approach with people who come by their callous, self-destructive eating habits more honorably or simply had the decency to keep their fucking mouths shut about them.

        Your point about food deserts in other countries is a non-starter. It was clear that I was talking about the ones anti-vegans are so very concerned with in the US whenever veganism is discussed.

        Saying that my lack of precision makes me “the flipside” of meat eaters joking about McDonald’s and your hyperbolic mischaracterization of what I said pursuant to exalting your own superiority — having found the one true political religion — is plenty lefty pathological in its own right. But I really like you so I’m going to stop here, insisting, again, that poor people can make ethical decisions and should when they have the means to, which is actually quite often here in the core, despite what middle class white people who have known neither poverty nor poor people say when they’re trying to win arguments for their own selfish ends.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        You: “Substitute “industrial agriculture” for “animal agriculture” (and “commodity consumers” for “meat and dairy consumers””

        No thanks. This stuff is just stupid. “industrial” literally just means efficient. If we never went industrial we would still be hunter-gathers. We ran out of mega fauna because we hunted them into extinction. Whoopsie. Then we either had to develop other ways of producing food to survive, or see a population crash, and food production has continued to become more efficient over time. Going back to less efficient methods solves nothing and it’s always over-privileged self-adorers who go on about their organic local non-industrial meat and wild-caught salmon.

        Secondly it’s like saying anti-cigarette campaigners should replace “cigarettes” with “products” in their anti-cigarette campaigns, because all industry is bad and poor people smoke cigarettes. Give us a break. Maybe permanently.

      • Tarzie says:

        The vegans and mostly vegans in this discussion need to be nicer to each other. Solidarity, comrades!

        But yeah, I find this unwillingness to make distinctions within capitalism, which would render, say, the production of solar panels equivalent to factory farming, intellectually unsatisfying and perilously close to the defeatist “after the rev” talk by which middle class radicals abdicate any pre-rev responsibility. Your cigarette analogy is spot on.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        Sorry I forgot to mention that being hunter-gathers with 7 billion humans means hunting and eating each other because their clearly cannot be enough wild animals to hunt. The world cannot sustain primitive “communism” for 7 billion people.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        That person’s vegan? It didn’t sound like it hehe. I am irredeemably argumentative by nature, even with other vegans, who are more worthy of engaging with. I am sorry to when good people feel offended or afraid to engage, but I can’t help myself.

      • Tarzie says:

        I can hardly lecture on that score myself. But lately I prefer the most blinkered vegans to practically any meat-eating political type and since we take so much shit all the time we could at least make an effort. BTW Russ is being a dick too.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        i might also have been confusing Russ with jason. Sorry Russ. Man the “industrial agriculture” thing bugs me though. I’ll just go back to producing lentils much less efficiently and that will solve everything. Grr.

  10. radradio says:

    Hen’s do stop laying eggs when they go broody, which can go on for months we’ve found. The extended in-activity however is bad for them.

    Even the Bluejay’s lay eggs with no male around, and also spend too much time on the nest each year, get weak, we eventually take the eggs away if they haven’t gone bad or broken by then.

    – All our birds lay eggs and brood, whether they’re fertile or not (chickens specifically can’t tell if their eggs are fertile, they brood regardless, not sure about the other birds)

    They all seem to ‘like’ making nests, laying eggs and sitting on them, this time of year they’re obsessed with it. It’s no surprise – after all they evolved that way..

    the eggs eventually go rotten, so we employed the tactic of swapping them for golf balls, this keeps them broody as much as possible while also not wasting them

    once they start eating them, they won’t stop (they develop a taste for them) then eggs are gone, they’re not broody anymore, and they keep laying more.

    – keeping them broody with fake eggs worked out best..

    most of the nutrients rice has, are sprayed on (fortified, rice is fortified because it doesn’t meet minimal standards as a staple, people will develop beriberi relying on it), this washes off almost immediately. And un-polished rice also contains Arsenic and rinsing removes very little in that case. Rice uptakes Arsenic worse than any other common grain. It also is grown using huge amounts of water (although it doesn’t have to be).

    I only eat rice about once a month because of these reasons.

    re: EWG’s methodology

    If you look at the full report, you’ll see they list all the actual pesticides found, then you can look up each of these pesticides yourself and sort them by various measures of toxicity:

    – children are especially sensitive to endocrine disruptors, pregnant women to placenta crossers, the elderly to brain neurotoxins

    younger age groups to carcinogens, older to immune system toxins

    ..the data comes from the USDA

    lactose intolerance

    cheese, yogurt and other fermented dairy has little-to-no lactose – not that I’m defending dairy consumption

    all infants have the enzyme (lactase) to digest milk, but if you don’t keep consuming lactose, your body usually stops making it (since you don’t need it)

    some races lost this ability more readily than others.. (cultures that don’t consume dairy)

    > This obsession with getting enough nutrients is really silly.

    depends on how you define them. If you’re focusing on gut biota, then the type of fiber has a major bearing. Myself I concentrate on the quality of fiber rather than quantity, selected superfoods (including fermented and live cultures) and antioxidants (mostly spices), while avoiding GMO’s and low nutrient density calories of any type.

    • No soy yo says:

      I’m talking about brown rice, not white. Thought that was clear. Not going to argue with you, but not true that these methods don’t remove any arsenic from brown, even in those studies. Most of my rice is brown rice from CA found to have very low arsenic values. I rinse more thoroughly than the labs in experiments that did a quick soak. Eat corn if you prefer.

      Really lactose *tolerance* began as a reaction to eating dairy. And I was clearly referring to “primary lactose intolerance” after weaning. Or are you like Red Kahina and suggesting that vegans are against breast feeding? So what’s your point? The cultures you refer to that can more readily digest lactose (after weaning) are not Black or Latino or Asian or Native American. Poor kids in the US are given milk specifically (and maybe cheese or yogurt or whatever in addition) every day during the school year by the US government. And there’s even a “special milk program” for schools that don’t participate in the school lunch program. Yay! The federal government via the states also gives away milk to poor mothers under WIC. 53% of infants in the US are covered by WIC, which often means milk for the mothers. Kids can qualify up to 5 yrs old. More milk.

      I eat starch. Not one vegan doctor or nutritionist whose opinion I value believes in weighing or measuring, except for items like nuts that should be limited, and “measured” with the palm of the hand. (actually for heart disease patients Esselstyn recommends a fist-sized serving of greens 4 or 6 times a day-so it’s sort of measuring, but it’s like a medicine). The most well-known vegan MD who does recommend all sorts of supplements and super foods conveniently sells all the items he says we need at a nice profit. Since I try to promote veganism and to educate, I don’t believe in making eating vegan like a science class. It’s not. This is especially true for those who are eating the Standard American (Standard Western) Diet to begin with. This is exactly their excuse. So difficult to get “complete” protein, or whatever as they eat 3X needed protein and 5% recommended fiber, and fruits and veggies are grapes and iceberg lettuce (probably on the hamburger). Arsenic in rice oh my as they eat processed meats. E-coli in spinach! If you want to tweak it a lot further, that’s great. The Okinowans had vitamin “deficiencies” and still lived longer than any verified group of people. They ate on average 39g of protein per day and “had demanding jobs.” Not suggesting deficiencies, but I don’t think it’s that complicated either.

      • radradio says:

        I basically agree with you No soy yo, although unless organic, Oats in the U.S. have been found to have very high levels of Glyphosate, and saying beans (black or otherwise) can be eaten ‘without cooking/heating’ might be misinterpreted as meaning beans don’t require cooking, which they do because all raw beans are poisonous, some more than others, as few as 5-6 Kidneys consumed raw can kill a person, so when I mention beans and cooking I always make sure and point that out.

        So my specific advice to Hummus is to eat a combo of beans & corn together in the same meal, as a dairy replacement, and yes black or dark red beans, along with white corn. Here we often eat bean chili and cornbread, but also often just cornbread too since we both like it so much.

        re: rice
        Surely you’re aware that any Arsenic at all is bad – that there is no safe level of exposure? Other grains were checked and no detectable amount was found in most samples, while Arsenic was detected in every sample of rice, even organic.

        On lactose, no real point, just that these simple truths tend to get lost in the hype.

        Re: starch, and ‘valued opinions’
        I tend to rely on actual measurements and hard data, like the amount of Arsenic actually measured in sources of starch, the levels of pesticides and herbicides actually measured in various foods. I place priority on avoiding knowingly consuming toxins since our environment is full of them.

        As to the rest, I agree with it – excess protein, too little fiber, the dairy racket, but also the carbon footprint involved in growing and transporting foods thousands of miles, along with our rapidly diminishing supply of fresh water (growing rice in flooded fields in California which is basically a desert, then transporting it across the country, so people eating it can still enjoy avoidable Arsenic exposure, for example)

        – we’re here to contribute and add perspectives, not compete and downplay/dismiss. All this knowledge adds together, not cancels out..

      • No soy yo says:

        Yeah I meant to correct my “beans” w/o cooking and point out I meant “canned beans,” when I realized my mistake, but figured that anyone who wasn’t trying to argue would realize what I meant. I said black beans because those are the cans I’ve seen most often in bodegas in NYC, which was the criteria I was using.

        Same meal? That is outdated junk from the 1970’s.

        There is arsenic in water. Surely you don’t recommend not drinking water?

        Where is the ‘hard data’ about “Superfoods” and whatever? Where’s the data that I need to worry about the type of fiber or my biome if I eat LF vegan?

        “we’re here to contribute and add perspectives, not compete and downplay/dismiss.” Well, I said one sentence about “lactose intolerance” and you decided to say “not cheese!” “not yogurt!” and bring up breast milk. I say rice and you say “Arsenic!” I say oats and you say “glyphosate!” I say “potatoes” and you say “EWG!” Maybe you’re a vegan that I’ve been instructed to be nice to, but sounds like you’re saying how dangerous plant food is, that we have to be worried about all sorts of details like super foods, “combining proteins,” and “biomes.” along w/ arguing about semantics: “you said ‘lactose intolerance’ and not “primary lactose intolerance,’ the horror.” Also seems like you’re saying that all starches except corn and maybe cooked beans are dangerous. Total BS. “To the point I wonder if you are a vegan and I’m not going to be nice about it.

      • radradio says:

        > canned beans – BPA in the liner, expensive.

        I figured you didn’t mean raw beans (including frozen), but since raw beans are poisonous I mentioned *I* always make sure and say so.. I always simmer dry beans myself (avoid canned food), black beans have the highest level of antioxidants.

        arsenic in water – The USGS and EPA has CONUS maps of the amount of naturally occurring Arsenic in water. Many areas have no detectable amounts, some do, a few ‘hot spots’ have a lot.

        Everyone needs water, but eating rice is a choice.. apples & oranges

        > hard data about “Superfoods” search phrase ‘ORAC values’ : – Antioxidants, Superfoods, ORAC Values

        Top 100 High ORAC Value Antioxidant Foods
        What Are ORAC Values? – Scientific American
        Oxygen radical absorbance capacity – Wikipedia
        USDA Database for the Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity

        Click to access ORAC_R2.pdf

        > combining proteins, breast milk

        I never said these – search this page, I just did..

        > you’re saying how dangerous plant food is

        never said that either, I said look at the test result database and simply choose organic when prudent, which is exactly what EWG says too, in their FAQ

        > biomes
        Biota, look that up too

  11. pim says:

    We took in an old mongrel, fat on tinned meat and crisps. A family in our neighbourhood put up pictures begging for anyone to take her. They didn’t ask anything about us except they tried a last minute blag for cash and to reassure us she won’t last long. The dog had been the property of gran. Gran was going in an oap home (presumably an underfunded hell hole) and the dog was out. The parallel treatments of the dog and gran was glaring.

    Seven years later the dog has changed from a timid blob into a demanding rascal. I fear gran is dead or sitting in her own piss. Fuck, I despair.

  12. radradio says:


    Fortunately other people who actually do have contact with animals know what I’m talking about, while a single person who appears not to, and so substitutes with principles based on moral absolutisms, used as word clubs to bash those who are actually trying to improve the situation in their everyday life, can afford the luxury of sticking to said principles.

    – I’ve even been criticized for feeding the wild birds once.

    And a similar posture and argument was presented, that a) it’s really just for my benefit, just to ‘feel better’, and b) it doesn’t really help the birds compared to say, some picturesque valley full of flowers or other fantasy, for them to live in, instead of the reality of our neighborhood or a family farm, neither of which I have control over – anything to belittle people who take concrete steps, by those who don’t..

    Animals know not of principles, which sounds like meaningless chatter to them, they only know of action. It’s our actions that define us, not words.

  13. Hummus says:

    I’m going to do my best at a sincere non-vegan post as a guideline for non-vegan posting here, prefaced by the opinion you should probably lean on the side of silence so you have the opportunity to educate yourself.

    I’m not vegan and in the years I’ve read this site I’ve reduced but not eliminated meat consumption. I have a physically demanding job and milk is my cheapest and easily accessible protein. I still want to transition to a more plant based diet. I lack a lot of resources for this aside from asking cute girls I know to be into this shit to take me to their favorite vegan places. That’s not really a hell of a commitment I’ve made to changing, but something that’s been on my mind and conveniently we got a post on veganism instead of one of the tired white kid shit on Twitter.

    I have questions mostly along the lines of “what do you do with leftover livestock if no one is eating/exploiting them?” which I think is a fascinating question but so far off in the future it’s not worth worrying about. It’s also way more sincere and original than “lol so you’re going to make wolves eat grass huh? HUH?” Reducing environmental impact and developing a sense of empathy towards your food thralls is a more important and immediate concern.

    We can’t all be booj irony boys.

    • Tarzie says:

      you should probably lean on the side of silence so you have the opportunity to educate yourself.

      Word. Of course I think everyone should be vegan, and I think the stakes are high enough to merit rudeness, but my spitting and frothing is mostly reserved for assholes who proselytize and make trivializing jokes. It’s amazing how in the course of this comment thread, some jackass doing ads for Chicken McNuggets while performing anti-imperialism on Twitter — a classic, all too common, and truly ridiculous political type — has become a proxy for poor folks inhabiting food deserts eating out of dumpsters. Why is it not obvious that I am attacking *vocal* lefty hypocrisy specifically?

      WTF is wrong with people? Why can no one read?

    • No soy yo says:

      The obsession with protein is based on old misunderstandings and on meat and dairy propaganda. On the other hand, people in the US are fiber-deficient generally and specifically fruit and vegetable deficient.

      The only group of people who need more protein than the regular guidelines are pregnant and lactating women. People with “demanding jobs” don’t need more, since the top # in guidelines are meant to cover 97.5% of the world’s population (many of whom work at demanding jobs and get to those jobs w/o bike or subway), and include people who get their protein from all sorts of sources.

      This amount is .89g protein per kg of ideal (not actual) body weight. If your ideal body weight is 180 lbs, then you need at most 72 grams of protein per day (that is if you need way over the median amount of people in world — the median amount for world is 66g protein/kg). Eat 600 calories of oats, 600 calories of corn tortillas, 600 calories of black beans — all cheaply accessible at bodegas in NYC, and all can be eaten without cooking/heating if in a pinch — and that provides 71 grams. Whatever you use to round out your calories needs in a day (hopefully oranges also found at bodegas and other fruits and vegetables) will have well over 1 gram. If your ideal body weight is higher, the same principles apply. An infinite number of ways to do this cheaper than milk, and w/o the problems for cows, environment, and your body associated w/ milk.

      • Tarzie says:

        An infinite number of ways to do this cheaper than milk, and w/o the problems

        Especially in Brooklyn. Jeez, hummus!

      • Hummus says:

        Ok Ive been thinking about making this jump and I’ll try this week wish me luck

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        I just assumed you were already vegan because of your name. Haha. Just do it. It’s your destiny.

  14. radradio says:

    Thanks Tarzie

    I’ve seen you subjected to the tired ol’ amino acid argument several times here over the years, so I understand why you’d be reluctant to dive into it again, but just as nutritional density impacts health, both legacy measures of nutrients – the vitamins and minerals we see printed on every processed food, and the newer more holistic concept of nutrition, which focuses on gut health and it’s care & feeding, you’ll be happy to know that old standby – the quality of protein intake is only as strong as it’s weakest link (which is what the balanced amino acid advice is based on – all the way back to eating meat), has been superseded by new data that shows our gut biota manufactures key amino acids that would otherwise be thought lacking in a wholly plant based diet.

    This is the ‘secret’ that vegetarians may not be consciously aware of but often try to get across, that the reason they’re as healthy as they are, even lacking direct intake of amino acids and B-12 is due to their far better gut health, which is really what keeps us healthy.

    People throughout time before industrial civilization figured out for themselves what combinations kept them healthy under the limited availability of foodstuffs they had. So I find it’s often helpful to refer to them, rather than argue about chemicals on a cereal box.

  15. Hummus says:

    Tarzie isn’t the Stalinist vegan Messiah, let me get back to you in three days.

    In the meantime get ready to obliterate your ego for a terrible monastic order

    • radradio says:

      It took several months to adjust to a high fiber diet. Most people on a typical western diet, high in animal proteins, animal fat, low fiber starches, low fiber quality (wheat bran for example, rice isn’t much better) and often large amounts of refined sugars, get terrible gas, even cramping and bloating when they suddenly start adding high quality fiber to their diet, beans are notorious..

      I’d stretch the change out over more like 3 months rather than days. Gut biota accounts for 90 % of the cells in your body, they’re the ones that need time to adjust. Rush it and you invite discomfort.

      • Hummus says:

        I’m attending the Crown Heights Tenant Union Congress tomorrow to assess and combat anti-radical tendencies (hello DSA!)

        If you do weak ass irony trolling of this shit and live in the NYC ratfucking fake left scene I invite you to show up look for the really tall guy and see if you want it worse than I do.

      • Tarzie says:

        Ha ha.

        I would give up anonymity and also pay a considerable sum to watch you break every bone in Felix Biederman’s smug little sociopath face while all the wannabes looked on in horror.

    • Hummus says:

      Ugh threading anyway corn is one of least favorite things even though I do like corn tortillas but set sail for corn I guess!

      • radradio says:

        damn I included 2 citations when replying to No soy yo just now, so that comment has been flagged.. (links to superfoods – ORAC values, more USDA data)

        I’ve been following your comments but most of it is outside the scope of my experience. Tarzie however has done a pretty good job of explaining it in plain terms, which is why I added my own perspective from running hidden services over the years (I once operated 134 servers), but these seemingly twitter intertwined terms and personas are not familiar, since I’ve always had all social media sites blocked upstream. So while I can comment on the logistics of running servers, twitter specific conflicts are outside my sphere of interest. I once lived in Newark and visited NYC a few times, 3 decades ago.

        If you can get them organic, Oats have the highest quality fiber of any common grain, however few people relish the idea of combining them with beans in a meal. Whether you personally like corn is another matter, but I’d study corn’s amino acid profile before making a commitment on the matter.

        Processing corn with lime (calcium hydroxide) increases the nutritional value, so yes,
        tortillas are an even better way to get corn.

      • No soy yo says:

        You don’t need to eat corn, though tortillas are generally cheap and easy to find. You don’t need to “combine proteins.”

        The healthiest (whole) plant food is that which you will eat. Anything you do will probably be healthier than milk. Starches are a low-fat way to get the bulk of calories. Rice, legumes, oats, winter squash, potatoes, corn, sweet potatoes, quinoa, barley, wheat, buckwheat, etc.
        Dried fruits and nuts and seeds add calories and nutrients, especially for those not concerned about weight, and are a great snack. Vegetables and fruit add more vitamins and antioxidants.

        Drink lots of water and your body will know what to do with the increased fiber, especially if you have fruit along w/ rest.

      • No soy yo says:

        I’ll look at your data Radio if your comment goes through, but what I’m talking about isn’t a bunch of numbers, but data that shows that for someone who gets the recommended # of servings of fruits & vegetables, especially a LF vegan, it matters whether they eat organic or eat the super foods etc. When I mentioned doctors I respect it’s because they use actual data from human studies, not a bunch of meaningless numbers. Like some tankie who says that grains have a higher glycemic index than sugar, and thinks this says something menacing about grains instead of something about the uselessness of the glycemic index.

        Protein combining is total BUNK. BULLSHIT. Why do you keep repeating it? You don’t need to eat beans w/ your oatmeal. Frances Moore Lappe probably did more harm than good with her BS and she admits she made it up.

        Someone wants to go vegan and currently his main source of protein is casein, which is literally an on-switch for cancer. Even the paleo folks acknowledge that. He doesn’t like corn. You think you’re helping him or the cows or the environment by telling him the safest starch is corn, and that there are dangers in oats, rice, potatoes? He mentions protein and you’re talking about combining BS and “amino acid profile”? I’m sure lots of people don’t want corn as their main source of calories. It’s probably why you spent 3 months instead of a few days dealing with the increase in fiber since it’s not that easy to digest. It’s in the top 5 (more or less) of allergens (milk, wheat, soy, peanuts corn is I believe the list-but something like that). If people have the resources and the access, they should choose organic. If people like other starches equally (or are nursing), they should limit brown rice. Everyone should try to avoid rice from the southern US and other problem areas, soak, rinse well, cook like pasta. Maybe if they love corn, corn’s the best option. But the number one thing a casein consumer (who doesn’t smoke) can do to reduce cancer risk is almost surely to stop the casein and increase fruits and vegetables.

        Never saw this before but this is pretty much where I’m coming from. Yes, organic’s better (though probably less so than when this was written), but if someone’s currently eating animal products you’re doing more harm than good making a big deal over it, since it’s animal products that have more carcinogens:

        I’ll give more info and links about protein, organics, casein etc. for anyone interested in a separate reply that will also get hung up in moderation.

      • Tarzie says:

        In your honor I have loosened the moderation triggers on links.

    • Hummus says:

      It’s actually pretty good over here and the hardcore DSA people seem to have skipped Congress for the sake of brunch.

      I’ve had animal by-products (bagel, cream cheese, croissant) but no meat today

      • Tarzie says:

        Cream cheese and butter are not by-products.

        I don’t ever wanna know what you’re eating unless it’s vegan.

        I’m on a mission to normalize vegan intolerance. Don’t test me.

      • Hummus says:

        Ok ok look there was a very free and appealing absolutely non vegan/vegetarian dish for lunch and I just ate the salad.

        It went better than I expected and have discovered since that most of the children not being at brunch were off playing at the Syria protest. One of our goals is to help build tenant unions in adjacent neighborhoods and we had a visitor from PLGNA (Prospect/Lefferts) who are facing many of the same internal and external issues we are. I’m glad I went.

      • Tarzie says:

        Ok ok look there was a very free and appealing absolutely non vegan/vegetarian dish for lunch and I just ate the salad.


        Free food is a great challenge when you’re just starting out and to be honest I don’t think the occasional lapse on free food is that big a deal. Veganism as a practice is, at heart, a boycott. Declining free food is very low-level boycotting though I still think one should do it so as not to publicly endorse animal foods and because caterers plan based on what they expect.

        Thing is, once you’re a vegan, it’s a good idea for purely selfish reasons to be really disciplined because you’re getting all these health benefits that you can screw up pretty easily. Like your better gut flora, for instance. You don’t wanna mess that up. People who transition to a whole plant vegan diet often report that it feels like recovering from a lengthy illness. The change is noticeable in about two weeks, particularly with respect to digestion and stomach complaints.

        The good news is that the more disciplined you are with it, the less inclined you are to even want anything else. Your tastes change. One thing that gets mentioned too little is that in a number of studies where they put one group on a vegan diet and one not, the people on the vegan diet report greater satisfaction with the food itself.

  16. radradio says:

    here’s the comment with the links not live, No soy yo (though technically once the original gets through, this will be a dup)

    canned beans – BPA in the liner, expensive.
    I figured you didn’t mean raw beans (including frozen), but since raw beans are poisonous I mentioned *I* always make sure and say so.. I always simmer dry beans myself (avoid canned food), black beans have the highest level of antioxidants.

    arsenic in water – The USGS and EPA has CONUS maps of the amount of naturally occurring Arsenic in water. Many areas have no detectable amounts, some do, a few ‘hot spots’ have a lot.
    Everyone needs water, but eating rice is a choice.. apples & oranges

    > hard data about “Superfoods”

    search phrase – ‘ORAC values’ : – Antioxidants, Superfoods, ORAC Values
    Top 100 High ORAC Value Antioxidant Foods
    What Are ORAC Values? – Scientific American
    Oxygen radical absorbance capacity – Wikipedia
    USDA Database for the Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity

    > combining proteins, breast milk
    I never said these – search this page, I just did..

    > you’re saying how dangerous plant food is

    never said that either, I said look at the test result database and simply choose organic when prudent, which is exactly what EWG says too, in their FAQ.

    > biomes
    Biota, look that up too.

  17. radradio says:

    There’s nothing stopping you from searching for these phrases and educating yourself, before dismissing what you haven’t bothered to look into. In fact what you’ve claimed ignorance about, (superfoods – high ORAC foods, ‘biomes’ (gut biota) and the major role it plays in nutrition), ignore (pesticide/herbicide levels, Arsenic found in all rice, rarely found in other grains), equivocate (water, a necessity) with a choice (rice consumption), condemning dairy across-the-board without considering the cow’s diet (high omega-3 grass vs grain, dioxins, PCBs, heavy metals contamination) speaks volumes.

    And tying in meat and dairy, repeatedly, into a discussion only involving vegetables – even the EWG data only covers fruits & vegetables, and no animal products are in any superfood (high ORAC) list either. You even brought in processed meats in an attempt to buttress your position..

    The real howler though is embracing some data while forcefully rejecting other data 🙂

    – and where’s your analysis of carbon footprints and scarce water waste in all this?
    Sweetcorn is very last on the list, (lowest pesticide levels) and is grown locally, as opposed to flooded fields in a desert, then transported thousands of miles, for example. Considering the situation there, the fish & wildlife (what’s left of it) I’d avoid ANY products from California. The only thing that should be leaving California are people.

    • No soy yo says:

      I’ve read about it. I’ve seen Fuhrman’s infomercials, too. I haven’t read anything that says that increasing fruits and vegetables and especially fruits and greens is less effective than using those numbers. In any case, I already said numerous times I agree with eating organic if possible. Re the other stuff, show me relevant human data. I’ve read data that shows that vegans’ gut biota is already far superior. I’m happy for any data that involves humans and shows that vegans (or even high fruit/vegetable low meat consumers) are better off paying attention to stuff about gut biota, and quality of fiber etc. vs what I promote. Much of the research is done to enable cow eaters to keep on eating cows, which are the source of problems with our biomes (yes I brought up meat again).

      “condemning dairy across-the-board without considering the cow’s diet (high omega-3 grass vs grain, dioxins, PCBs, heavy metals contamination) speaks volumes.” Yeah, that speaks volumes about you: all you like to do is downplay dangers of animal products and tout dangers of plants. “milk from happy high omega 3 grass-fed cows.” Give me a break. Besides which isn’t this discussion about eating vegan? I’m not giving an analysis of miles flown because eating vegan is way more important than that, especially if one eats whole vegan food which already mostly isn’t in bottles and jugs and cans. I bet you buy Mother Jones’ BS about almond milk and California too and so much better to follow Gary Taubes and eat grass-fed beef. Besides which how can someone eat corn year-round without buying it frozen/canned or flown in fresh? Even in Florida it’s not grown year round, I only see it grown fresh for a month or two a year.

      The discussion is about non-vegans (Are you one of them?), and the usual nonsense about food deserts, milk is easy calories, “protein,” vegans are elitist, etc., not what ideal diet vegans should eat. Each time I mention vegetables/grains you mention a problem with them. You continue to tout corn to a non-vegan who doesn’t like it. Jesus. Then nonsense about protein combing and “amino acid profiles.” That’s why I keep bringing meat and milk up, because my rice, potatoes, oats were in response to meat eaters’ objections. If you were telling me as a vegan to eat corn I would have simply said I can’t make it the center of my own personal diet because of a mild- to moderate- intolerance. I have a severe intolerance to oats but I still suggested it for others as it’s one of cheapest choices in US. Can be eaten raw. Can be softened in water overnight and eaten cold. Satiating. Fiber. I didn’t realize we were discussing our own personal choices here.

      I personally don’t eat much rice. I bought a case (20 pounds) of California rice and it will last me at least two years. It was transported across the country but doesn’t require refrigeration and won’t go bad. That’s 22 days worth of calories over two years. I feed some of it to guests. I feed omnivores delicious vegan food with rice because they prefer rice with every meal, and convince them to take food home and try my recipes, and they reduce their meat consumption. I’ve convinced some people to eat vegan by in part giving them vegan food. I center the meals around what I know they do/would enjoy (if someone didn’t like corn I wouldn’t feed him corn for God’s sake). Add in other rice I buy from time to time and it’s maybe 4% of my calories, well under the recommendations of Dr Greger (his recommendations are for someone who can eat and enjoys other grains, since he thinks, based on human data, everyone should eat grains regularly. I don’t enjoy and in some cases can’t eat other grains, but I ignore his grain advice and eat potatoes instead for a variety of reasons, including the concern about shipping grains around the country/world. When I am eating well, around 70% of my calories are from potatoes. This is based on research and also personal reasons. Will probably be more careful about buying organic now, and follow advice about washing in vinegar or salt solution when I don’t/can’t). Occasional rice makes my vegan life easier. Maybe that’s not so important for me anymore since I’m committed, but this wasn’t again a discussion of advice for vegans.

      • fjdh says:

        (just as an aside, I wouldn’t put much stock in Fuhrman. He’s picked Rich Yuppies who are Really Worried About Their Health and Want To Eat Nutritionally Superior Food To Care For Themselves as his audience, and has been fear-mongering about starches, and hyping “nutritionally dense” food and his supplements ever since, even though the evidence for its superiority is non-existent (due to the unreliability of dietary research, and because there simply is no data on vegans who eat WFPB long term)

    • fjdh says:

      honestly, do a common sense check. If we had to micromanage food intake like that, we’d never have been here today. I’m very hesitant to even respond, because I worry it’ll just reaffirm your prior that this shit matters. It doesn’t.

      To get a sanity check wrt “super”foods, read T. Colin Campbell’s Whole.
      Biomes are “important,” (if mostly something people bring up because they want to avoid the moral question) yes, but what matters mostly is whether or not you eat lots of acidic (animal protein & fat) containing food or not.
      Arsenic afaik is mostly found in rice cultivated on land previously used to farm cotton, for obvious reasons.
      What you say about Cow’s Diets is a joke — “Grass fed” is a niche product marketed to affluent consumers, which is just as nutritionally unnecessary as regular milk, though it might contain slightly fewer toxins that would harm *you*. But the more important point is that cow’s lives are not ours to decide on, take, etc.. We have no morally relevant criterium on the basis of which we may treat nonhumans as property, and to raise, use and kill them as we desire, so if we care about fairness and accept egalitarian principles, we shouldn’t.

  18. forest says:

    my wife is vegan. i occasionally eat eggs and cheese from ‘kind’ local producers. it always invariably makes me feel false, incoherent. i wouldn’t say i was a professional athlete, but i certainly train as if i were. there are days when eggs and cheese are the only food that set me right. i’ll go through periods of aggressive veganism (meaning i don’t advertise it, but when family members or close/long-term friends sneer at it, too easily tear into them thereby creating antipathy and distance) followed by periods of remorse and hopelessness. ‘what’s the point? i’ll say, i want us to disappear. humans suck. fuck the environment, we’re fucked whatever we do……’ ‘it’s for the animals, dummy’, my wife will say gently, smiling. and of course she’s right. i’m 47 and try as i might to be as little complicit in our own destruction, i sometimes get to a place where i just don’t care and see all efforts aimed at economic/social/environmental justice or improvement as utterly pointless and undesirable. but my wife’s gentle reminder always deflates and sets me on a more compassionate, less self-centered and destructive plane. the fact that 4 out of every 5 environmental activist i encounter justify their habitual meat consumption by the ‘kindness’ of its source also makes me wonder: what the fuck? anyhow…. back on the wagon. you have a way of cutting through all the nefarious bullshit and setting me straight, too. thank you~

    • Tarzie says:

      Your wife is a keeper.

      Cheese and eggs were the big challenges for me, also. Meat never tempted me once I gave it up. I found that the healthier my vegan diet was, the less I craved dairy. Something about doing whole plants all the time changed my idea of what delicious is and also made the animal taste more disagreeable. I do still want cheesiness sometimes, and when I do, nutritional yeast generally satisfies. There are also good gooey cheese subs that you can buy as well as make. On rare occasions I do a fake mozzarella made from cashew pieces and tapioca flour It’s super easy and produces a pretty similar effect on pizza.

      Meat-eating environmentalists are the worst. Some environmental organizations actually endorse factory-farming as an alternative to turning rain forests over to grazing. Have you seen Cowspiracy? It shows how bought/intimidated the environmental movement is in relation to agribusiness. Eye-opening and highly watchable.

      • forest says:

        referring to cowspiracy and how many worlds it would take for everybody to eat ‘kind’ meat (the quotation marks don’t make me hate that expression any less) the handful of meat-eaters i’ve spoken to about it have all said something along these lines: well, if everybody just ate meat a few times a week instead of a few times a day, there wouldn’t be a problem. how’s that for reasonable?

        we top our (homemade) pizzas with cashew or almond ‘cheeses’. very tasty, indeed! will try the tapioca. takes a few minutes to make almond feta, but who wants to eat california almonds? fucked whatever we do:)

      • Tarzie says:

        yeah “kind” and “humane” animal commodification makes me gnash my teeth. This shit can’t flourish without vegans bent on being way too nice. The stupid goes too deep for diplomacy and we get called self-righteous assholes no matter we do so I’m over it.

        Nut and coconut-based dairy analogs are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I think cashew and almond milk ice cream is genuinely better.

      • pim says:

        Just made some cashew ‘cheese’. Blimey, unbelievably simple and tasty. Ta.

  19. radradio says:

    > all you like to do is downplay dangers of animal products and tout dangers of plants.

    again, putting words in my mouth. Everything I’ve cited doesn’t even mention animal products, and nowhere have I suggested it myself – to anyone under any circumstance. Sweetcorn is harvested here when in season, then canned in glass jars or frozen. We actually use mostly white cornmeal, I freeze it too, to kill any beetles that might be in it.

    > That’s why I keep bringing meat and milk up

    whoa ! a ray of sunshine finally breaks through the clouds

    Sorry about the dup Tarzie, I removed the URL tags but the forum put them back

    I drank lots of milk when I was a kid, from the grass fed cow I took care of and milked myself, and collected the eggs from the free-range chickens, but that was then. The chickens I’ve had as an adult were saved from slaughter, kept indoors as pets and the eggs given away, while encouraging them to lay as few as possible. And now I just have this unwanted rooster, who jumps up and snoozes on my lap.

    All animal products no matter how benignly treated, all have levels of contamination higher than any plant products, with the exception of Arsenic in rice (animal products only have Arsenic if the animal is fed it, or the environment is contaminated with it)

    This is why no serious accounting like EWG or the ORAC lists ever even mention animal products – it’s a given..

    • No soy yo says:

      “All animal products no matter how benignly treated, all have levels of contamination higher than any plant products”

      Then why with the BS about omega 3 milk (the study is BS even in regards to the omega 3 issue)? Why are you telling a milk drinking corn disliker to eat corn because of problems in rice, oats, potatoes? Why the BS about protein combining and if he eats oats he needs to eat beans with them? You’re a troll but this is Tarzie’s site so whatever, have fun.

      • Hummus says:

        I don’t think he’s a troll I like having information and perspectives available and I feel like both of you are being too sincere for trolling.

      • Tarzie says:

        Troll/not troll are end points on a continuum not binary. I get NSY’s frustration but think that the conversation has been valuable and am really glad she stuck with it. Lots of good stuff here for impending vegans and diehards both. I keep wishing NSY would write a book or at least blog.

      • No soy yo says:

        Thanks! Working on it! (blog)
        And thanks for the loosening for links.

        Well if not a troll then a shill for organic dairy and/or corn and probably not a vegan:

        NSY: “lactose intolerance”
        RR: not when breastfeeding! [“all infants have the enzyme (lactase) to digest milk”]
        RR: “not yogurt or cheese!” [“cheese, yogurt and other fermented dairy has little-to-no lactose – not that I’m defending dairy consumption” – yeah right]

        NSY: “casein is dangerous”
        RR: “you’re lumping “omega 3 milk” with “PCB milk” which says so much about you
        [“condemning dairy across-the-board without considering the cow’s diet (high omega-3 grass vs grain, dioxins, PCBs, heavy metals contamination) speaks volumes.]
        (how is this not defending dairy again? Or at least how is it not defending organic grassfed dairy? Not to mention casein and omega 3/pcbs are unrelated and the study about omega 3 vs 6 in organic grassfed cows was riciulous on several levels)
        RR: we’re here to contribute and add perspectives (yeah, pro-dairy pro-corn anti-vegan)

        NSY: but all milk is bad
        RR: of course all milk is bad, why do you think EWG doesn’t include it? I’m educating here

        NSY: fiber’s great!
        RR: low fiber quality (wheat bran for example, rice isn’t much better)

        NSY: drop the milk and eat potatoes
        RR: “pesticides”!
        NSY: You can reduce pesticides by up to 100% using one of two rinsing methods
        RR: silence

        NSY: tortillas and canned beans are cheaper at a NYC bodega than milk
        RR: BPA!
        RR: Why do you keep mentioning milk?
        RR: canned beans are so-oo expensive: you should spend hours cooking them and you’ll get the umami flavor– a much better alternative than grabbing a convenient gallon of milk at a bodega.

        H: I’m going vegan this week! Check back in 3 days!
        RR: 3 days? You’re gonna have discomfort, terrible gas, even cramping and bloating for 3 months!

        NSY: “oats are convenient and cheap”
        RR: “glyphosate”!!
        RR: “who would want to eat oats and beans together”?

        NSY: “Rice is cheap”
        RR: Arsenic!

        NSY: I rinse and eat rice from California, arsenic starts low and is much lower from the rinsing and cooking method I employ
        RR: rinsing doesn’t work with brown rice! You’re rinsing all the nutrients! Immoral to buy anything from California!

        NSY: First step is stop animal products
        RR: “Why aren’t you promoting local and organic??!! Flying food all over the country.

        NSY: pet ownership is ownership
        RR: When I was on a farm!!
        RR: “Most people can’t hand milk their own cow, but can keep pet chickens.”
        “She liked being milked..”

        NSY: Where are the studies proving what you’re saying?
        RR: “There’s nothing stopping you from searching for these phrases and educating yourself, before dismissing what you haven’t bothered to look into.”

        NSY: I can’t eat white corn because of intolerance
        RR: silence

        NSY: the excuses of meat and dairy eaters are no good
        RR: Why do you keep bringing up meat and dairy?!

        H: I don’t like corn, love milk
        NSY: don’t need to eat corn: eat potatoes, rice, oats, lots of choices
        Any problem with a vegetable less than with the milk you consume now
        RR: Why do you keep brining dairy up? The EWG knows dairy’s bad

        H: I don’t like corn, love milk
        RR: “amino acid profile”! [“Whether you personally like corn is another matter, but I’d study corn’s amino acid profile before making a commitment on the matter.”]
        RR: “Rice (often even organic) is high in Arsenic, I suggest white corn instead, who’s amino acids compliment beans almost perfectly as well.”
        RR: “Oats have the highest quality fiber of any common grain, however few people relish the idea of combining them with beans in a meal.”

        NSY: why do you keep talking about protein combining
        RR: “I never said these – search this page, I just did..” ]
        Oh for fucks sake. You talked about combining amino acids several times, and that oats and black beans would need to be eaten at same meal. Are you really going there? Trying to claim that “combining proteins” isn’t interchangeable as “combining amino acids” on a blog post about veganism? This is why I call you a T-R-O-L-L. Whatever anyone else may think.

        “So as distasteful as this topic may be here, in reality without amino acids, food would be very flat and boring.” Yup, a troll. Veganism and knowledge that “protein combining” is a myth = thinks amino acids are bad and food would be better w/o them.

  20. radradio says:

    Thanks Hummus, that’s it exactly.

    – although a plant-based diet is the only conscionable choice these days with the rise of big AG and capitalism’s impact on nature, the choices we’re artificially limited to, are not without pitfalls.

    EWG’s data and ORAC values are about going beyond vegetarianism, in the same way vegetarianism is about going beyond meat..

    I don’t just want to eliminate meat, I want to optimize health, which includes driving the western sickcare racket out of business. It’s difficult to do when petrol-based products continue to be deployed on GMO monocrops drenched with them, creating superweeds and superbugs, on top of the meat industry’s supergerms.

    All these adaptations are nature’s way of letting us know we’re doing something wrong..

  21. radradio says:


    the fermentation process breaks down the casein into it’s constituent amino acids, 3 of which are the main flavor enhancers, also called umami and savory – glutamic acid, inosinic acid and guanytic acid, often used in other foods, with yeast being a concentrated source, also used as a direct replacement for MSG, (monosodium glutamate) disodium inosinate and disodium guanylate, and often added as autolyzed yeast, bakers yeast, brewers yeast and torula yeast.

    hence the your craving..

    Beans undergo the same process during slow simmering, and tomatoes have their own complimentary amino acids which further enhances the taste:

    So as distasteful as this topic may be here, in reality without amino acids, food would be very flat and boring.

    • Tarzie says:

      Mind you I have not given this thread a careful reading, but I think the distaste was for talk of amino-combining, which has long attended attempts to make veganism into a joyless, difficult and parlous science. Among the many things I admire about NoSoyYo is her no bullshit approach to vegan practice. I’m all for the science of making things tasty and I reckon everyone else is too.

      So do umami and savory really only come down to those three acids? Fascinating if true. I’ve always found it interesting and encouraging that anyone tasting nutritional yeast for the first time seems to really like it, even though it doesn’t really taste like anything else. It just hits the same nerves more familiar foods do. Umami is essential for me. I put soy sauce in practically everything and nutritional yeast in about half that.

  22. radradio says:

    The flip side to amino-combining are unbalanced consumption of amino acids, particularly MSG and phenylalanine.

    Some people including me, get a burning sensation on the back of their neck when too much of this amino acid is present, along with other reported symptoms including chest pains and headache.

    – and it’s not just glutamic acid, too much inosinic and guanytic acids have also been reported as problematic..

    The best known example of this, is the consumption of the amino acid phenylalanine (known as nutrasweet, aspartame and neotame) – all the horror stories we’ve seen over the years on the perils of diet soda..

    But it’s not the amino acid itself that causes problems – it’s consuming too much of it, on an empty stomach not balanced out with the others in a full meal. So these negative outcomes have led to the understanding that too much of any amino acid can cause metabolic disturbance.

    (when not enough essential amino acids are consumed, that also means your getting too much of the one’s you are consuming)

    But sadly this knowledge was hijacked by PR firms/think tanks tied to the meat industry to promote their products, by pretending complete proteins are always required or are inherently better, while also trashing plant sources as being incomplete and therefore inferior. However as is so often the case when agendas are involved, these PR efforts fail to mention the role gut biota plays in manufacturing several key amino acids, based on a regular high quality, high fiber diet.

    The vegan side likewise pushed back, by pretending balanced meals are of no importance – again without actually explaining why and under what conditions. That more important than the quantity of fiber intake is the quality. These amino acids are actually due to the body’s absorption of dead gut bacteria which feed on said fiber..

    But this idea, that we’re still consuming animals, inside our own guts, doesn’t sit well with vegetarian purists, so they pretend it’s not happening and as an extension of that agenda, doesn’t matter.

    This is what’s behind some of them being so militantly opposed to the very idea of doing simply what indigenous people have done for thousands of generations – combining beans & corn – insisting, often forcefully – that it’s not required, and/or doesn’t do any good.

    However they miss one very important point:

    – it doesn’t do any harm

    If indigenous peoples have been doing it for thousands of generations, successfully, with no problems, what’s the point in condemning it? (myself I feel more satiated, and go longer before the next meal by doing so. Doing so is more filling & satisfying, plus the tastes compliment eachother as well) When food is scarce, doing this makes it go further, last longer, and taste better..

    So this reactionary campaign against doing what our ancestors have always done since time immemorial, has nothing but agenda is behind it..

    -there’s no actual harm that can be demonstrated from doing so, while the benefits are well known by millions of people throughout time.

  23. radradio says:

    NSY, without a field of strawmen what would you do?

    – in half the time it took to repeatedly misquote and make up a dialog that never happened, by either of us, something constructive and illuminating could have been posted..

    .. I go by whether good new useful info and tips are being brought to the table which anyone can use, so they can be even healthier and live even longer. Conversely when such dialogue becomes overshadowed and obscured by bickering, browbeating, strawpersons and dogma, I withdraw rather than continue contributing, to avoid being boxed in as only a competitor, in the resultant special olympics.

    • Tarzie says:

      I like you both and I think you’re both well-intended. In saying that, I’m not trying to second guess either of you in regard to each other. I would like for the heat come down a little on both sides, though.

      Mostly for the sake of lurkers and also hummus, I am going to guardedly choose a side here to simply say that, whatever your intentions, radradio, I do think you complicate food in a way that makes veganism seem difficult. When I first became a vegan, one thing that really pissed me off was how much veganism was bundled in with health food religion. I wasn’t that concerned about the health aspects. I just wanted to limit my complicity in animal agriculture.

      I’ve since then become way more health conscious, although by your lights, I’m dicing with death. I eat a lot of non-organic, my beans are all canned, I don’t do anything to remove arsenic from the rice I eat ALL the damn time, and I love the cheap oatmeal I eat every other morning. I don’t combine aminos except by virtue of generally liking the combo of legumes and grains. I don’t count calories or nutrients I just try to make sure I’m getting the high-risk items like B-12 and iodine, either through fortified foods –B12 is everywhere in the stuff vegans eat/drink — or supplements. I get good report cards from my doctor, I almost never get sick, and physically I feel pretty great most of the time. *knocks wood*

      I don’t want to live forever if it means I have to turn eating into a job and that’s kinda what people like you make it feel like. You might find all this stuff easy and fun, but I don’t. Nor, I imagine, do a lot of people. It’s become very clear to me that for a lot of people, the biggest barrier to veganism is the conviction that to do it without killing yourself you have to be super meticulous and careful and extremely well-informed and for all your caveats, I think you kind of feed that phobia. There is one thing that really needs to be stressed: that almost any way of eating a diet that consists mostly of whole plant foods is going to be better nutritionally than any diet that revolves around even the highest quality meat and dairy ingredients. The fear-mongering should be aimed at meat and dairy consumption.

      Hummus is much more likely to marvel at how good he feels when he attempts veganism than how bad. You’re encouraging people to overthink and to worry and that’s just not helpful for beginners. I’m not convinced there is any bad intention behind it, but after reading through the whole conversation more carefully, I understand NoSoyYo’s frustration if nothing else. I’m not trying to silence you or anything, but I would like you to maybe think a little bit about the impact of your remarks on beginners which are the people I most want to win over here.

      And bringing up shit about vegan conspiracies to repress talk of gut flora is so rarefied as to seem like pure nonsense to 99.9% of my readers and it does have the stench of anti-vegan shit stirring, though I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt. Mythical vegans that fret over non-sentient beings like gut bacteria and sperm are a standard feature of anti-vegan propaganda even though I’ve never met one in real life. The only haggling I’ve ever seen of this kind is over honey. In my experience, most people calling themselves vegans are way too liberal about what it means.

      I make no bones. I want people to read this blog and become vegans and so I’m partial to people who facilitate that rather than work against it. That doesn’t mean I want everyone to just do pure propaganda here, but I think the emphasis should be on helping people to go vegan, and dwelling on negative food facts and nutritional complexity as if particularly relevant to veganism borders on disinformation.

  24. radradio says:

    The EWG site has a pocket guide on the clean fifteen and the dirty dozen, meant to be carried with you while you’re shopping.

    When one of the pieces of produce you’re about to add to your cart is one of the dirty dozen, they simply suggest walking to the organic section and adding it there to your cart instead.

    The ORAC list is the spice isle, choose whatever spices you like best, and add them regularly to your cooking. – We use Sage, Parsley, Black Pepper and most of all, Turmeric.

    The working poor can’t afford to be picky, can’t afford expensive imported and specialty foods and so on. Several newbies here have expressed frustration on breaking into a vegan lifestyle that’s extensively tied into spending far more money and traveling further away than is practicable to make the switch. – Several arguments have ensued over this issue, words like ‘callus disregard’ have been flung..

    The tips and websites I’ve cited represent concrete, easy and practical solutions to this recurring divide. These are the people my efforts are directed to. At the very least it reduces some of the tension when such people come here, and can see such practicable easy and cheap solutions on offer.

    basically it boils down to this:

    shop at your usual place, but use these guides to shop smartly

    Aldi is greatly expanding their organic section due to this demand and they’re the cheapest place in town..

    So whether you wish to cater to what ordinary people see as elitist, militant, ‘ivory tower’ vegans using dirty tricks to turn a constructive cooperative atmosphere into a battleground is your call, but my continued participation is contingent on two things:

    1.) serving the interests and priorities of the working poor, to be as healthy and live as long as possible within their budget and abilities.

    2.) in a congenial constructive cooperative atmosphere, at least encouraged if not actively enforced, in which to do so.

    It appears you’re not interested in either, from what’s went down in this thread and from what you just said..

    – correct me if I’m wrong in this assessment

    • Tarzie says:

      correct me if I’m wrong in this assessment

      You’re wrong in this assessment.

      And your comment here is a masterpiece of disingenuousness. Still making veganism into rocket science which leaves one uniquely vulnerable to poison and adding in the elitist/expensive myth on top. It has not been at all obvious that your main interest is helping poor people make healthy choices, by the way. It seems more evident that you are trying to complicate veganism for people who might be considering it. That is, if we measure your intent by your effect.

      I’m starting to agree with NSY that you’re deliberately stirring shit. It’s looking less and less like your stated aims are your real aims.

      I dimly recall your making worthy contributions here in the past, so I’m gonna continue to try to be nice but you’re making it hard.

      Question which might get at the problem NSY and I are having with you: why is The Dirty Dozen more germane to a discussion of veganism than a discussion of food generally? Do you not see how within this context you’re implying that pesticides are a bigger problem for vegans than for non-vegans? Meat eaters eat fruit and vegetables also. They also ingest toxins from meat and dairy. Is it not equally apparent that you are now suggesting that veganism poses unique problems for poor people, even though evidence suggests that veganism is no more expensive than a meat/dairy diet and by some accounts is actually cheaper? Not one single word of this is true:

      Several newbies here have expressed frustration on breaking into a vegan lifestyle that’s extensively tied into spending far more money and traveling further away than is practicable to make the switch. – Several arguments have ensued over this issue, words like ‘callus disregard’ have been flung..

      Why are you making shit up? I had to check to make sure this wasn’t an excerpt from some other source you were introducing. There have been no such arguments. A troll came and played the food desert card, got put in his place, and that was that.

      What do you think you’re offering here that is germane to a discussion of veganism vs non-veganism., as opposed to a general discussion of nutrition and healthy food? It seems to me there is a conflation here that aims to muddy the waters. Let’s clear it up, ok, and I’ll stop suspecting that maybe just maybe you really are a fucking asshole.

  25. radradio says:

    Ok, thanks Tarzie

    Continuing on:

    The most effective part of building and maintaining wellbeing (outside of rejecting meat) are exactly the smart choices proposed by EWG and the ORAC lists. EWG helps you avoid the bulk of toxins simply, effectively and cheaply, while the ORAC lists empowers you to get the most bang for your buck by selecting easily obtainable common spices. The average American takes a half dozen pills a day, almost all from big pharm, and almost all with both short and long-term side-effects. Superfoods (high ORAC spices) aim to eliminate this exploitation – healthy people don’t need pills..

    While the EWG is cooperative effort of highly talented people who considered many different angles and strategies on how to reach the maximum number of people in the most effective way possible, to produce the greatest improvement in wellbeing for the least amount of time, money and effort, while also fighting big AG and petro-chemicals (by effectively boycotting them), protecting nature/the environment and bio-diversity, fish and waterways, habitat, birds and insects.

    I’d wholeheartedly endorse them and their data as base strategy (in fact I do on community affairs, I even read out loud the entire list) while also embellishing it with the vegan agenda – after all, there IS no conflict between the two, with the small exception of seafood (they do try to help consumers shop smartly there too) However a huge disclaimer and several warnings can be added: (which I also warn about)

    1.) almost all seafood is mislabeled and you would rarely know what it really is, or where it comes from (from another consumer reports expose’)

    2.) for northern hemisphere seafood, consider it all contaminated by various toxins and radioactive isotopes

    3.) for southern hemisphere seafood, consider the carbon footprint and thus reject it too

    4.) it’s still meat and in conflict with vegan ideals..

    Also for non-meat sea products, all but the last still apply (seaweed, sea salt)

    I was buying sea salt until Fukushima, now we’ve switched back to iodized mined salt (which actually is sea salt anyway) after I found out common sea salt here comes from the west coast..

    The one specific nutrient that stands out on this subject are Omega-3 fatty acids, with fish oil being traditionally considered the best source.

    Well fish is out of course, for the 4 reasons listed above, so I researched a suitable substitute. The answer turned out to be more difficult than it intentionally seemed.

    First Walnut oil – American black Walnut to be specific. Close, but the exact type of Omega-3 isn’t optimal, and the Omega-6 levels are too high. So I looked specifically at what made fish oil optimal.

    Seaweed and other sea plants. The answer therefore are land plants with as close a profile as possible, and the answer is algae. (same as fish) However the working poor can’t afford that specialty food, so second best is Flaxseed oil. Hard to find but obtainable at a reasonable price. For everyday use I recommend Sunflower oil. It’s rather expensive at $ 11 per gallon, but Olive oil is even more expensive and almost always comes from California. Sunflowers are also grown here, and are highly unlikely to be GMO and drenched with Glyphosate like soy, corn or rapeseed oils are.


    Ah I see you’ve changed your reply.

    The simple answer is holistic – everything’s tied together. In nature nothing exists in isolation, and wellness is the sum total of all these issues.

    “Holistic nutrition includes consciously eating healthy foods that promote vibrant physical and mental health, while supporting a strong immune system and preventing disease.”

    Vegetarianism is at the base of holistic nutrition..

    • Tarzie says:

      Yeah, I changed my reply when a second read hit me wrong in the ways I mentioned. The blatant lying in “Several newbies…” was the trigger.

      I have no objection to this latest summary as it does not imply that veganism is uniquely problematic. While switching to a vegan diet can be an opportunity to make additional adjustments with respect to fruit and vegetable choices, preparation, washing etc. I would simply like to stress that a vegan diet does not make those adjustments more necessary. To be clear for anyone reading:

      a healthy vegan diet is no more difficult or expensive or risky than a conventional diet centered on meat and dairy.

      This is the point that is getting lost in a deluge of info on pesticides and aminos and poor people and truck stops and whatnot. As far as I’m concerned, most of what you have discussed in this thread is entirely separate from vegan vs not vegan. That’s not to say it’s useless information, but it has created confusion.

      Also, while I consider improved health a bonus for going vegan, I don’t think it’s the most compelling reason for it. Even if the diets were nutritionally equal, eating meat and dairy would still be a douche move.

      • pim says:

        “a healthy vegan diet is no more … expensive … than a conventional diet centered on meat and dairy.”

        Maybe I’ve missed something – I haven’t read everything here (I eat vegan with little if any concern about nutritional balance so skip the detailed stuff about proteins and acids etc) but this seems to shift your perspective. Surely, for the vast majority of people vegan is cheaper.

      • Tarzie says:

        Surely, for the vast majority of people vegan is cheaper.

        I believe that it is is, but since it’s contingent on what you eat, and the few studies that have been done called it a draw, I don’t like to dig myself a hole with absolutes. I also think “equal” is enough when they come at us with bullshit about food deserts. I don’t think we have to prove that it’s cheaper.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        I’m a (nutritional) health freak (not for longevity but because I struggle with fatigue and find that every little bit of effort I put into healthy eating is usually worth it. I don’t do quite as much exercise as recommended because I find the effort+time to percieved benefit ratio does feel anywhere near as high. I don’t eat organic because it’s usually more expensive or more effort where I’m at, not all of the vegies I want are available organic, and my resource metrics it’s actually worse for the environment, and it’s also makes a tiny difference to health compared to other things. Apart from avoiding animal parts, the next main things are eating enough vegetables (which means a ton) and cutting out salt, minimizing oil etc. Finding a good B12 pill that doesn’t have harmful additives like Xylitol is probably the next step for most people. We can’t focus on everything at once.

        I do not think much of the info radradio has provided is good info, and it’s not just a matter of making it sound too complicated, but also focusing on relatively minor stuff, and I think some of it’s actually bad and unscientific. Dr Greger can make things seem a bit complicated, but his job isn’t to make people go vegan. I agree that in a non-vegan space we should try to focus on the basics. There’s nothing wrong with telling people who are already committed vegans that rice isn’t the healthiest of the grains, and that BPA isn’t 100% safe, but radradio is mixing in bullshit paleo-blog pseudo-science with the real science in an forum where most people aren’t even vegan, probably have terrible SAD diets and are only going to be confused, overwhelmed and partly misinformed.

        Omega-6 to 3 ratio effecting DHA production is an old hypothesis that the bloggers and comment sections have run away with, but science has basically disproven it (although you could cherry pick a couple of small studies that back it up, most studies show no difference or even the opposite). You can eat as much walnuts as you want, or any other nut, or avocado (from a health perspective), even though keeping it to a relatively small amount of with loads of vegies and plenty of whole starches or legumes is probably ideal for enviro and cost benefit. Long chain Omega 3s like DHA found in fish and algae are hormones that our body makes. Supplementing with algae oil has benefits in reducing brain damage the same way testosterone therapy has benefits for men who don’t want to lose their manly sex drive as they get older, but it’s not necessary for basic health, or natural. Most studies have concluded that eating more flax and chia (although they’re healthy) doesn’t increase DHA levels in the blood, and neither does reducing omega 6 consumption, because their is a set limit on how much DHA produces like with other hormones and most people are already at that limit. I think quitting alcohol and other drugs would probably do more for one’s brain health, and there are plenty of things more important for overall health for the average person reading this blog.

      • Tarzie says:

        Thank you for this corrective. I know too little about nutrition to know what’s bullshit and what isn’t.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        And I totally agree that unnecessary harm to animals by exploiting them directly should be enough of a reason, even though we sometimes have to fight against the stupid meat industry trolling about veganism actually being bad for our health or bad for the environment or worse for animals and all that bullshit.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        @pim On average it’s probably cheaper, but it depends what you chose to replace to animals with. On average it’s slightly healthier, but plenty of vegans are stupid enough to eat nothing but oreos, or eat nothing but fruit while avoiding all sources of B12 for like 10 years, and they bring down the average. That’s why it’s appropriate to use “no more difficult or expensive or risky” because it entials “may be easier, cheaper, and healthier” while conceding that’s really up to the choices of individual vegans, and the only thing that is definitely true of a vegan diet basically no matter what other choices the individual makes is that it’s more ethical.

      • Tarzie says:

        When I say it’s healthier I qualify it with “centered around whole plant foods.” I refer to my former self as an Oreo Vegan.

  26. No soy yo says:

    How exactly is oil “holistic”? How is worrying about oil = thinking about overall food or diet and not some specific “nutrient” that you’re going to suck out of the nut or seed or fish? How is looking at the individual ingredients of a food and saying you need x y or z food (white corn, etc.), more holistic than talking about overall diets? Sunflower oil, BTW as an example of an omega 3 oil is a total joke. It has some vitamin E but otherwise is totally bereft of nutrients. Its fatty acid profile is *all* omega 6 and ZERO omega 3. It has trans fats and saturated fat. Olive oil that you mention as an alternative if it weren’t from California, has a bit > omega 3, but still is 12.5 to 1 ratio 6 to 3. Hardly something to seek out.

    The people with *zero* heart disease (currently the biggest killer in the world) were the Papua New Guinea Highlanders. They got 90% of their calories from sweet potatoes. They didn’t eat any meat regularly (but occasionally feasted on pork for special occasions).

    The longest lived population (and 4th lowest incidence of heart disease) that was verified are the Okinowans. They got 69% of calories from sweet potato (I’m sensing a pattern here, and it ain’t corn or oil though of course the Aztecs were strong on corn so those who enjoy it should eat it). Less than a teaspoon a day of all oils. Despite living on an island, they only got 1% of calories from fish (and again, not in the oil form). They ate few calories (on average 1785 per day for adults) so only 18 calories per day on average of fish. Meat, eggs, and dairy were each less than 1% of calories. Seaweed, <1%. Nuts and seeds: <1%. So no big omega 3 sources (but no big omega 6 sources either). No super foods other than a bit of seaweed. Their *total* average intake of *all fat* was 12 grams per day (6% of total calories). For those keeping score at home, there are 13.6g fat in just 1 TBSP sunflower oil.

    Click to access anyas_cr_diet_2007_1114_434s.pdf

    The longest living people in the US are the Seventh Day Adventists who are told by their leaders to live healthfully and are prohibited from smoking and alcohol, and urged to avoid meat and eat a low fat diet. Their religion says nothing about organics or super foods (or saving bacteria or killing them in the gut). They live 4-10 years longer than the average Californian.

    In all the "blue zones," meat is limited. Legumes play a large part of diet in many areas. Many eat a moderate amount of nuts. Most of them don't use much oil or eat much fish. Those eating the so-called "Mediterranean Diet" live longer when they eat more fruits and vegetables, *not* when they consume more fish or oil.

    The only peer reviewed studies showing reversal of heart disease were low fat vegan (Esselstyn) or almost-vegan (Ornish) diets. Esselstyn didn't let his patients consume oil, nuts, seeds in the first study, though he now recommends a TBSP or so of flax or chia seeds but no oil.

    Absolutely none of these groups of people worried about super foods or organics. They didn't worry about "quality" of protein, fiber, omega 3. Esselstyn does now recommend a lot of greens for his heart patients to repair their endothelial cells. But “greens” include everyday items like broccoli, cilantro, parsley and spinach (list is at 41:10 of this video:

    We have more toxins and stress than when many of these studies were carried out, but we could also could add more fruits and vegetables to counter-act that as the first step. (The Okinowans e.g. ate < 1% of calories as fruit, we know that fruit increases longevity at least for us in our toxic environment). We also are quite certain that increasing conventional fruit reduces far more cancers than it produces from additional cancers. (The study that tried to count these numbers was by industry, but all the hundreds of thousands of people who reduced cancer by eating more fruits and vegetables were theoretically eating the same organics vs non-organics as the general population )

    Just a reminder that 17,820 people in US were surveyed (in 2010) on 7 healthy habits/markers:

    150 Minutes of Moderate Activity per week
    – BMI 1 yr
    – Healthy Diet (As defined by the AHA)
    – Cholesterol < 200
    – BP < 120/
    – Blood Sugar < 100

    The "healthy diet" was less healthy than any of us are talking about here, and only .5% people fulfilled this. Only 213 people met 6 of 7 of these factors, and 2 people out of 17,820 (.01%) met all these criteria. Superfoods is not a priority for working people, rich people or poor people in the US or similar countries. Basic health is. Getting to these levels is easiest on a whole food vegan diet. Even a less healthy vegan diet will usually improve these numbers. Vegans generally, not just the healthiest, have lower bmi’s and lower cholesterol, etc.

    Put another way:
    “The Real Dirty Dozen: The 12 Deadliest Dietary & Lifestyle Factors & What You Can Do About Them”:

    There are no studies that show that someone who already eats lowfat vegan w/ lots of fruits and veggies and then pays attention to EWG or ORAC lives longer lives, is healthier etc. We can guess that they do, but again adding a piece of fruit each day may very well be equally as effective and probably more so. I’m pretty sure that people who add the spices they enjoy to their vegan food are more likely to stay vegan, so I might also guess that it’s actually ineffective and possibly even dangerous for a new vegan to worry about it.

  27. Hummus says:

    I’m constantly consulting this thread but by day 2 I can tell you I’m not the Stalinist vegan Messiah. I don’t have gas due to city intervention and other issues have made this a less than ideal starting point.

    Nor is this anything unhelpful scary or overwhelming because Ive been thinking about this a long time and haven’t been chased off of this yet.

    I also tend to agree with Tarzie that I’m not going to lose sleep over the amount of arsenic in the rice I consume as I’ve done plenty of more body harming things (scraping the pipe and smoking the mystery bounty!) but it’s still good to know there are better options than rice.

    • Tarzie says:

      Yea. I figure the far larger amounts of sugar and alcohol I ingest are a bigger problem. Nonetheless, NSYs tip about cooking and straining like pasta seems simple enough to pilot. I’ve kinda fallen out of love with my rice cooker anyway.

    • Tarzie says:

      Dude, you need to start living up to your nom de plume or we’re gonna start calling you kofta.

      • Hummus says:

        I tend to not eat and it was approaching something looking more like a fast than a commitment to diet. Quickly I texted one of the aforementioned cute veg girls “what are you doing for lunch?”

        Hours later she let me know she just wrote a song about caving into ordering xxxxx, which was exactly what I did.

        But it’s like I bought oats and rice and came back to the city and oh yeah I forgot, no gas, thank you local religious community and your aggressively racist and dangerous business practices.

      • No soy yo says:

        “The cute veg girl made me do it.” Haha. (she may be cute, but she’s not vegan if she “caves” to xxxx) You live in NYC. It’s really not that hard, especially when you’re ordering takeout. Go online, look at a menu, choose something without meat or cheese or eggs. Or call up and ask what they have that’s vegan (or say vegetarian to start depending on place but choose something vegan). Walk to a corner store, buy tortillas canned beans and hot sauce. And an orange. Bread and peanut butter. Whatever.

        Yeah I’m pretty annoyed about your name too: I thought you were vegan this whole time until this post. Do you even like hummus? You’re going vegan and you didn’t buy hummus ingredients and/or store-bought hummus?

      • Tarzie says:

        I honestly think meat culture induces a block. There is no set of goddamn conditions more conducive to having meat and dairy than vegan especially in fucking Brooklyn. This is just bullshit, Hummus. I don’t get the no gas thing. What, you’re in Brooklyn and you can’t get food without a car? I’m not gonna ride this will he/won’t he train even before it turns into a form of trolling in its own right. Commit or go home.

        I tell all new vegans to inventory every fruit, vegetable and vegan or easily-made-vegan dish they already love and make sure some or all of these things are on hand or close by. Then do your best one day at a time. Keep lots of fresh fruit around for craviings. Keep peanut butter around also, unless you don’t like it. Think fast, easy, tasty and remind yourself that though you might prefer meat or dairy at a particular moment, once the hunger is sated you won’t be craving anything.

      • Tarzie says:

        but she’s not vegan if she “caves”

        I think less than half the people calling themselves vegans really qualify. The bar is kept so low.

      • No soy yo says:

        I thought the no gas was no cooking gas. But I was in a time warp. Because, don’t you have a microwave, Hummus?

        If you’re not a big eater and prefer to drink your calories, then while it’s not recommended as the most healthy, you can do that a vegan way & it’d be better than milk. If you’re really are stuck on how to plan and organize your eating, then ask for help here: what do you normally eat/drink, do you cook or grab food on the run or order out etc., what do you like not like. How much do you normally spend, etc. If you’re trying to make excuses, then forget it. Not when you live in NY and are ordering takeout. If you normally don’t cook much, and you’re making eating vegan dependent on cooking, then you’re just planning on not being vegan.

      • Hummus says:

        Ok I was trying to be a little lighthearted about this but I suppose that may have been the wrong tone to take.

        1. The girl is vegetarian and not vegan and has little to do with any of this romantically or whatever, it’s not because she’s ever compelled me to nor do I feel like that’s the way to impress women. She was only mentioned because she is one of the few real life sources I have on decent vegan/veg places/things to eat.

        2. Gas is the reason I gave here, and it’s an impediment. Since you wanted to press on the other mitigating issues, the largest is somewhere in the neighborhood of a seriously ill, out of state parent.

        3. I care at this point in life a lot more about not wasting food than keeping vegan. Part of finding new vegan things I like is trying and ordering takeout/delivery has other issues worth damning (my own laziness being primary), but if I don’t like it I’m way less likely to finish it, way more likely to be hungry later, get frustrated, and go with the easiest non-vegan choice anyway. However, because I *HAVE* bothered to put a lot more thought into this than you and NSY seem to give me credit for, not breaking the attempt at veganism leads towards a fasting things and *I need to eat now.* I’ve vastly reduced meat intake from how I used to eat, if a vegan/veg option is available I’ll pursue it, and really the only thing that’s happened outside of a massive compromise yesterday has been egg and milk in baked goods. This has been a state that’s existed prior to declaring here I’d give it a shot. If you want me to be more serious in those declarations then I can go back to silence during vegan discussions, and hope you reconsider other aspects of “Hummus is much more likely to marvel at how good he feels when he attempts veganism than how bad. You’re encouraging people to overthink and to worry and that’s just not helpful for beginners.”

        4. I chose the name ‘Hummus’ over the public revelation that the US gov’t was(is) sodomizing hunger striking prisoners in Gitmo with it. It may have been a throwaway account years ago on Twitter. I like hummus. I often can’t find shit other than Sabra, which aside from being Israeli (not that I give a shit about boycotts of any sort, structural issues are too far gone for that to have meaningful impact.) doesn’t taste nearly as good as hummus I can get back home, however, that isn’t mass market and once again I do not have much context for vegan things I like.

        5. In praise of nut milks: I like them a lot but I also can’t help but think of how water intensive all that shit is and how I’d like to see how it stacks up to cow dairy especially. Probably fractional? California is damned on water for plenty of other non-almond causes. NSY I probably have ended up more on the drinking side of calories since I started weightlifting a few months ago and was supplementing with whey+milk and now with the other things going on in my life right now I’ll probably try this another time and just read until I have something good to report. I did have a pretty good vegan protein supplement for awhile but it’s somewhere near twice as expensive as whey. Maybe there’s cheaper out there? So much of this is habit and lack of knowledge.

      • pim says:


        As you like turmeric I’m going to suggest a recipe that changed my perspective. Most ingredients keep well. Eat it over days. It takes minutes. It uses one pot.

        250g rinsed red lentils
        2 chopped tomatoes
        4 chopped shallots (or onion)
        3 sliced chillies
        4 sliced garlic cloves
        2 teaspoon mustard seeds
        1 teaspoon turmeric powder
        10 curry leaves
        2 tablespoons oil
        725ml water

        Bung it all into a pot, bring to boil, cover and simmer low for 20 minutes stirring a few times.

        Optionally serve with rice. That’s how I started. Then build your spice collection (keep airtight and dark) and dive into the world of one pot curries.

        Tarzie, if you don’t want to this to turn into a recipe thread feel free to delete this.

  28. No soy yo says:

    BTW, if I were going to recommend one spice to people (non-pregnant vegans) based on what I’ve read, it would be turmeric. It is high but not the highest on the ORAC scale. Anyone w/ gallstones, a tendency towards kidney stones (more likely for meat eaters) and pregnant women need to limit it. Otherwise it fights inflammation, diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer’s Disease, lupus, etc. However, if you don’t like turmeric don’t eat it (Though if I had one of the above diseases, I’d personally consider it as medicine and not food)

    • Hummus says:

      I love turmeric to death the inflammation shit is absolutely not quackery and I throw it in everything because you can play to it’s flavor or mask it.

  29. No soy yo says:

    Probably a thread in post that is titled “Meat is for Assholes,” even if title was directed at other people, isn’t the place to be lighthearted about eating meat.

    Hummus: Liquid alternatives to milk does not necessarily mean plant milks*. I was thinking smoothies (with plant milk, but not exclusively plant milk), but that’s dependent on whether you normally spend zero time in kitchen or what. Do you have a blender? (you can get one on Craigslist for amount you’ll save in one week eating this way probably). Even though it’s not completely liquid, I was also thinking cold cereal and plant milk. I’ve offered suggestions and help, but it’s hard to be specific unless we know what you like to eat and drink other than milk and turmeric. What meat dishes do you order takeout? Do you normally cook? Do you buy prepackaged food? There’s no vegan equivalent to steak, but there are alternatives to most things and most kinds of dishes. I also can’t believe you’ve never eaten anything vegan, and can’t figure out something you would like and not waste. That’s why it’s hard to know if you’re asking for help, or just want to tell us about the meat you ate–it’s not a matter of not believing you’ve thought about it, but surely you can understand we don’t want to read about someone’s meat-eating even if represented by “xxxx”? (unless it’s generally, like I said, telling us what you normally like so we can help provide alternatives) How is it different from going to any thread on the Internet about veganism and having people say, “bacon!”

    The only relationship between vegetarianism and veganism is that many vegans were vegetarians first. There’s nothing preferable about dairy or eggs. As a matter of fact, dairy cows and laying hens are tortured even more than beef cattle, and then die the same way as I’m pretty sure Tarzie has pointed out in this thread.

    *Plant milks generally waste much less water than cow milk. They may have fewer calories, but help vegans to be vegan which in turn saves tens and hundreds of thousands of gallons. Thousands of gallons of water go into one pound of beef.

    • No soy yo says:

      Ok somehow I missed #5. You don’t need protein supplements. You can build and/or maintain muscle w/o it. Veganism really isn’t a big deal.
      Ideal: eat starches plus vegetables plus fruit plus legumes plus flax or chia. But as the studies I referred to show, really it’s just the starch that’s the main thing. People (just generally not directed at you Hummus) eat junk and then when they go vegan are so concerned about each and every nutrient. A Big Mac’s ok, but a potato isn’t? If you’re on the road, get a veggie sandwich at Subway no cheese. Or a baked potato at Wendy’s with a side salad and salsa. Etc.

      The Papua New Guinea Highlanders I spoke of w/ zero heart disease? “The daily protein intake was 35.2 +/- 10.7 g. These results are probably exceptionally high, because the survey was unfortunately held during the yearly festival season of the village when the people often ate fatty port. Nevertheless, it is noteworthy that the growth of children and the physique of adults are normal in spite of the extremely low intake of protein.” So even during their yearly pigging out so to speak on pork, they ate as little as 24 grams of protein a day and were strong: “From the data collected, it was shown that the physique of the Highlanders was more muscular than that of the Japanese.”

      More protein doesn’t build more muscle. More resistance builds more muscle. All you need is the minimum. (which I already showed could easily be over 73 grams a day — no supplements necessary: and that was assuming you’re quite tall and you need more protein than 97% of the world. Highly unlikely. More likely you need much less than that)

      The men here might know of some weightlifting vegans (hopefully they’re not MRA assholes) to listen to. My brother’s older than you, but listens to Rich Roll podcasts — don’t know how old Rich Roll is. Roll is into ironman competitions so not weightlifting per se, but definitely need muscle to do it. Another brother also listened to Rich Roll 212 (episode 212?) with Ray Cronise, who is “The No Meat Athlete,” and recommended it.

      • No soy yo says:

        I should clarify I didn’t mean I hope the men here aren’t MRA assholes, but that there are some vegan bodybuilders whoa rent MRA assholes. Not sure how that became a demographic, but it is.

    • Hummus says:

      Yeah I wasn’t trying to come off any sort of way, even if it becomes a recipe thread I’m screenshotting the recipes. I like lentils a lot Ives just always been bad at putting it all together. I’ll go back to just observing on this.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        I thought of a great difficult recipe for you because you seem a bit lazy like me:

        Optional: peanut butter or another nut butter of your choice

        I know it looks difficult but I believe in you. Another good recipe

        Lettuce or carrots or sweet potatos or bokchoy any other vegetables of your choice
        Optional: avocado or nut butter
        Optional: salt

        Salt is not healthy and bread also contains salt basically always unless you make your own; but it sounds like this will already be much healthier than what you were eating before you were vegan. I have a microwave and use it to cook vegetables because I find microwaves to be very holistic but you can use any cooking methods.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        Or no cooking at all if it’s lettuce, carrots, fruit. Keep dried fruit around as a back-up for when you run out of fresh fruit. I don’t know why I’m giving you all this amazing advice. It’s not like you’ve earnt it.

      • No soy yo says:

        The majority of meals I cook consist of:

        chopped potatoes (2-3 medium fits depending on how many veggies)
        broccoli (frozen)
        tomato (fresh or canned)
        sometimes collard greens +/or spinach (fresh or frozen)
        spices (sometimes garlic powder and either Italian type spices, or curry powder + turmeric + a bit of cayenne)

        I cook it in the microwave in this:

        I chop the potatoes, tomatoes, scallion add cilantro and spices and a bit of water, microwave for about 7-8 minutes (if I’m using collards I add them then because I like them soft). Then I add broccoli and zap a few more minutes. Then spinach if I’m using. Usually add more cilantro. That’s it. I have literally gone months where I ate this for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I love potatoes! Frozen vegetables are often flash frozen in the field and fresher than fresh. It’s not complicated. Of course some people prefer more variety, and that’s fine too.

        The steamer is great for veggies alone too like zucchini which requires no water and just steams in its juices.

        I don’t worry about protein and only occasionally add beans to it-when I’m extra hungry or want a change– but you can heat and add a can of black (or other) beans. The curry + turmeric w/ the black beans especially tastes great. You can use other spice mixes as well. Stores sell them already pre-mixed for cajun, or whatever.

        You can replace some or all the potatoes with sweet potatoes and/or winter squash.

        If I travel, whether in hotels or to someone’s house I bring this steamer and I can always cook healthy vegan food I enjoy w/ only a microwave. Or I buy frozen steam in bag rice and frozen broccoli. Steam, add hot sauce (or soy sauce etc). Eat. The same dish can be cooked stovetop but I like being able to leave the kitchen and not worry about stuff burning.

        Or I buy organic frozen hash browns, cook in oven on parchment paper or a silicone mat I bought, then steam veggies in microwave when hash browns almost done. I love collecting vegan recipes, but I almost always make potatoes and vegetables and sometimes legumes unless I’m cooking for other people.

        [I do have another gadget that’s more expensive but not at all necessary, which is an Instant Pot electric pressure cooker. IT’s slow cooker, pressure cooker, yogurt maker, etc. in one. Can set and forget for some dishes]

      • No soy yo says:

        Since Tarzie hasn’t asked to stop w/ the recipes, here’s a site that, as you can see by title, is geared to new vegans, and not necessarily experienced cooks:

        Photos to go w/ instructions for potatoes and veggies in silicone steamer:

      • Tarzie says:

        I LOVE recipes.

  30. No soy yo says:

    I think Forks Over Knives recipes generally appeal to a wide range of tastes yet aren’t boring. Here’s a $5 a day challenge where the chef started with zero food, even salt, and ate well for $5 a day including feeding her boyfriend and having leftovers. Can be done much cheaper as well. I like this list, though, because she includes the recipes and it helps for planning: she cooks a pot of beans and uses them for different recipes. She cooked a lot of the days, but that’s not necessary either, more could be done ahead:

    But the site in general has a lot of recipes:

    McDougall recipes are generally very tasty and easy.

    A competing red lentil soup recipe! I’ve made this for omnivores and always goes over well. I skip the oil.

  31. forest says:

    10 minutes or less to prepare vegan awesomess:
    also: (quick/easy/economical vegan and some vegetarian)

  32. Cjd says:

    Ahhh- the purification self isolating ghettoization of the self. As the stories and narratives no longer make any sense to the ideologue (as they never can) the honest sincere ideologue goes on a quest for purity- still wrapped up in the fables and rightly disgusted with the compromises of pretty much everyone- he seeks solace in a world of purity in which he is the one shining example a no everyone else must follow. It’s basically the final stop for the sincere honest ideologue before the real heartrending battle with Ego and pride begins- and a true real awakening occurs. This was me about ten years ago. I’d bet this blogger is about to hang it up.

    • Hummus says:

      Neat troll, slightly more original than most. 6/10. Personally I’m hoping Tarzie and the Bicycle Genocide guy join forces and make the West pay in their never ending quests for “purity.”

      NSY+NoLimit: thanks for the recipes! My roommate and I have been meaning to grab a slow cooker. Gas was supposed to come on today but guess who no-showed HPD? The landlord! I don’t have a microwave. Apparently the landlord gives these out if you whine the right way but I’ve made it clear to him there aren’t any negotiations.

      Thanks for reminding me about sweet potatoes. I haven’t had them in ages and they’re another one of my favorites. Looking at all the options again makes it seem less overwhelming.

      (For the record I really like Bike Genocide guy)

      • No soy yo says:

        Well, no microwave or gas needed for most of NoLimit’s recipes.
        Here is “overnight oats” recipe — no gas or microwave required. You can skip the chia seeds (and/or replace with chia meal) but in that case reduce the liquid. Will be better w/ chia or flax but that’s a bit of a specialty item not at a corner store.
        She says gluten-free oats just because her site is gluten free, I believe. Any rolled oats are fine–you said you had bought oats.

      • No soy yo says:

        sorry–replace chia with *flax meal* above.

      • Hummus says:

        Yeah I independently realized nut milk was the natural solution to my oatmeal question.

      • No soy yo says:

        I was trying to point out you don’t need to cook oats. You can eat them straight from bag, but it’s sometimes hard to eat a lot that way. But just leave them soaking in plant milk in refrigerator overnight and they’ll be soft and creamy the next morning without cooking. Chia +/or flax will add to a pudding creamy texture, and are healthy, but not necessary for overnight oats.

        For those with a stove, take a big can of tomatoes. a can of beans, some frozen vegetables and spices (they sell them in spice mixes so you don’t even need to know what to do: “Cajun mix,” “Mexican,” Italian,” “Curry,” etc.). If feeling very ambitious add fresh garlic. Cook for 10-15 minutes. Double it to have more for week. Serve over rice you’ve pre-cooked, or use Success boil-in a bag. You don’t need time, $, or cooking skills to eat way better than before, and make the food delicious. Stopping abuse and murder of nonhumans and reducing destruction of planet aren’t bad either.

        Anyway, sorry if this became a cookbook comment section, Tarzie.

      • Hummus says:

        NSY my heartfelt thanks for compiling this for me

      • Tarzie says:

        Personally I’m hoping Tarzie and the Bicycle Genocide guy join forces and make the West pay in their never ending quests for “purity.”

        Ha ha. I’m up for it if he is. I love lstwhl also. I’m a cycling militant as well but at the moment that’s mostly restricted to screaming at car-driving shitheads who get in the bike lane or who lay on their horn because I’m not going fast enough to the red light in front of us. Stupid drivers and stupid meatheads have a lot in common.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        “Stupid drivers and stupid meatheads have a lot in common.” Yeah, I think it’s very intersectional.

      • Tarzie says:

        Conflicts over bike lanes are strikingly similar to arguments over veganism, with upper middle class white people who drive cars invoking invisible poor and Black people against gentrifying yuppies who use bike lanes. As with vegan vs meathead, it’s painfully obvious that the majority position favors privilege.

        In the US, census data shows most people who cycle regularly are poor, and any sustained observation of a bike lane in a big city will confirm this. This is certainly what you would expect given that cycling is the cheapest form of transportation besides walking. But data confirming the obvious is no impediment to the majority bonehead. Really, defending majority privilege or convention is where people plumb the depths of stupidity and disingenuousness. They feel no obligation to actually know things. This disgusting convention of wielding imaginary poor and Black people for agendas that are actually inimical to their interests really has to go.

        Some car drivers are utterly convinced roads are for them and everyone else is an obstructive interloper. On the streets I use practically every day I can travel faster than a car, but some of them will run stop signs just so they can tailgate me and honk their horn. That I am clearly traveling faster than they are over the long haul is entirely lost on them. To be fair, though, I’m generally surprised at how supportive many drivers are now. Some are almost too polite.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        I agree with all your observations on cycling. When I cycle myself I notice the assholes like that. One white dude that looked like he might have been a neo-nazi yelled at me as he overtook and pulled infront of me and yes there was a red light in front of him so I was able to overtake and shake my head at him as I passed. I’m lucky to be able to avoid the types of roads where this stuff is likely most of the time, where drivers don’t have even a that second to get pissy or an excuse not to give me plenty of space.

        On the rare ocassion I drive I give cyclists more than enough space to set an example to any cars behind me and denormalise risky and threatening driving behviours.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        Respect for cyclists is not taught enough in driving schools either or adequately required by the law. I only have that respect from being a cyclist.

        I’m now back to using public transport. It actually takes a bit longer on PT but exercise and the fatigue I get doesn’t improve my mood like diet does. I know it’s more effective than SSRIs on average but that’s not saying much and in my case I actually feel shittier on the following days, at least if the exercise is rigorous enough to make me sore.

    • Tarzie says:

      the honest sincere ideologue goes on a quest for purity…This was me about ten years ago.

      Oh, if I had a hundred dollars for every time some liberal ass used “purity” to signify any attempt at principled non-conformity…

      And then another 100 dollars for every laughably self-pleased, patronizing shithead who equated their own personal decay and middle age defeatism with growth. Do you have any qualities inconsistent with the most repellant kind of stereotypical booj ASS? Rhetorical question.

      In your former life, before you became more wonderful than I am, did you argue merits? Isn’t the most important thing that even by your account my disgust is “rightful?” It never ceases to amaze me how often the most sophomoric kind of psychologizing takes the place of an intelligent rebuttal. I think there are maybe one hundred people left on earth who know what an argument is. Clearly you’re not one of them, which makes your grandiosity particularly risible.

  33. BlanchoRelaxo says:

    The posts where vegan/veg recipes are listed and discussed, in an inclusive spirit provided you’ve brought yourself as far as not intending to eat other sentient beings with moms and families as a starting point… , on this site are second only to the very best of tarzie’s investigative and explorative pieces on left media shlubbery and shittiness. And these abound. If he is about to pack it in then it was totally worth it for the past 4-5 years that I have been checking this site myself. He even made it into an academic journal, which i think made most of us regular readers get off *big time* whether we’ll admit it or not. If he’s not packing it in, the ride continues. Part of the draw of this site is that the governor is as aloof as he wants to be, and is clearly using the platform as a tool for his own evolution and to aid in others’, if they are open to it.

  34. eckswire says:

    There’s this bizarre way that men, even allegedly #woke and self aware men, seem to view eating meat as integral to their sense of pride/masculinity. Probably a special case of the way society more broadly demands that Real Men™ look brutality and cruelty in the face with indifference.

    • Tarzie says:

      All true. Veganism is definitely looked upon as soft, and while I don’t have any statistics to back me up, my experience suggests that women take it up more than men.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        There are statistics to back this up. More than 70% vegan in most polls I believe. Interestingly, with milk&vegetarians it’s basically 50/50. Maybe the whole raping females, stealing their babies and stealing their milk has something to do with that.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        *more than 70% of vegans are female in polls I’ve seen.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        Oops now I’ve found other polls that say something different so scrap that. This data less reliable than I thought.

      • Tarzie says:

        What polls are you looking at? I’ve found it very hard to get any reliable demographic data on vegans.

      • No soy yo says:

        The problem is that people say they’re vegan (or even vegetarian*) but they’re not. The survey that actually asked what people ate and discovered there were many fewer of both vegetarians and vegans than previously thought was several years ago though, so hard to know now. There are also people who eat vegan (“whole foods plant based”) but aren’t vegan, and this population is also increasing (and though I know there are those in this group that mean “most of the time,” just like there are “vegans” who think fish are plants, there are many who never budge on the vegan food, but might wear leather, etc).

        Because people think meat=protein and protein miraculously builds muscle, there is definitely still a “real men eat meat” idea, but the number of vegans is so small that it’s certainly possible that vegans as a group don’t hold to that. In my experience the “plant based” folks tend to be more women.

        *Vegetarians are not in any way related to vegans of course, other than the fact that 75% of vegans used to be vegetarian. But then 99.9% of vegans used to be omnivores.

      • Tarzie says:

        I wasn’t lamenting the unreliability of the existing data so much as the paucity of any real attempts to document who’s vegan and who isn’t generally. From a data standpoint, the problem of people who say they’re vegans but aren’t is easily enough solved by asking them what they actually eat. Of course, that’s a little thorny too, since a lot of vegans, maybe even most, lapse here and there, but I think you could create a reasonable standard of what a vegan is that is vastly more reliable than binary self-labeling.

        I am less inclined than you to draw a thick line between vegans and vegetarians despite all the dislike I feel for the latter. Even putting aside their ignorance of the relationship between dairy and meat, the idea that killing an animal is worse than enslaving it is so callously stupid it’s sickening. Still, I was there once, and when I’m being charitable, I acknowledge that a lot of “ethical” vegetarians mean well, but they haven’t shed their speciesism, and I think a lot of them are just ignorant. The relationship of vegetarians to veganism seems kinda like the relationship between liberals and radicals. Superficially they’re points on the same continuum but at the same time diametrically opposed.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        I was going off memory of what I had read and heard cited in videos, which I think all said 60-80% female (UK-US), but when I Googled it I found along with these another one that said >60% male! I’m still assuming a higher margin of error on the latter.

        On top of the “men need [animal] protein for their muscles” delusions, it’s seems to me like women health concerned women are more numerous and perhaps less likely to believe Paleo garbage about fruit being bad and organic grass fed wild caught animal flesh being healthier.

      • NoLimitSoldEm says:

        It’s true that self-identification can be a little. Asking exactly how much of each thing people conaume is better because you get the whole spectrum.

        How often do you eat something that is not vegan? (2-3 times a day, 1-2 times a day, 3-6 times a week, 1-2 times a week, 1-3 times a month, 1-10 times a year, never if I can help it. And then “do you avoid other animal use where feasible? Leather? Wool? Buying pets from breeders? Zoo?

        Some vegetarians are open to veganism and I’ve had auccess talking to them, but I feel like a reducatarian or pescetarian who eats the same amount of animal parts in total is naybe just as likely to go vegan, so not sure if milk&vegetarianism is worth polling for specifically. Many polls on it already and don’t bother asking about veganism, plus “vegetarian” is even morw likely to include flexis.

  35. Sean Mulligan says:

    You can get chicken nuggets other places then McDonald’s.

  36. So Far Right says:

    I follow a semi vegetarian, modified vegan™ diet.

  37. Hummus says:

    I had an outlandish week, but very positive.

    Some people may or may not have allowed me to sit in front of a council person and say things.

    Some people may or may not realize it may be their undoing, or they at least opened a can of worms that they aren’t prepared to deal with

    Some people may or may not have let me know that my suspicions were not without merit and we are surrounded by a large number of vultures and bad actors and that our list of snakes have many mutual entries.

    Anyway Tarzie if you follow the Bedford Union Armory redevelopment shit at all(200+ units/subsidized by state money/52 $1 million condos/18 ‘affordable’ units for 60-90k households/PUBLIC ASSET) we need all the bodies we can get to stop it from happening so if you could raise awareness about it anywhere you feel is relevant because if we fail here that’s it for CH, but if we win we might be able to turn the momentum into something autonomous and model worthy.

    In a somewhat spectacular and unexpected manner.

  38. justin says:

    I am on the same wavelength on this issue and appreciate this post. If you think it relevant I would be interested in your take on the ‘ex-vegan’ trope in propaganda. Lierre Keith and Denise Minger come to mind.

    Also how do you use or deal with medical and scientific claims and authority. I am finding it challenging to evaluate the nutritional science and find myself relying on authorities that make sense to me.

  39. sam r says:

    i love you Tarzie

  40. fjdh says:

    Found your blog today, thanks for writing (including about veganism). 🙂
    That said, I’d like to make a book recommendation (two, actually).
    First, this book:
    it’s really a very good, clear presentation of the case for no longer treating nonhumans as property because they share sentience with us, and we have no good reason to treat their needs as outweighed by our desires for palate pleasure etc.. Plus a bit of theory going into why various mainstream forms of “vegan” advocacy are counterproductive. It’s really helped me to understand how to engage with nonvegans, and how to get them to see that nonveganism isn’t in line with values they already hold dear (like nonviolence, ‘animals aren’t things, and shouldn’t be treated as such’, etc.).
    The second is Bob Torres’s Making a Killing (or Nibert’s Animal Oppression and Human Violence):
    To cite a useful blurb:

    Bob Torres’ Making a Killing draws a very straight line between capitalism and the oppressive system of animal agribusiness. Drawing from social anarchist theory, Torres provides a convincing argument that in order to fight animal exploitation, we must also fight capitalism and, in doing so, animal rights activists will need to reconsider their methods and redirect their focus. While his critiques of the animal rights movements’ large organizations may not earn him friends in high places, such considerations are crucial to keeping the movement on track and for preventing stagnation.
    Making a Killing is an important work from a new voice in animal advocacy that will surely spark heated discussions amongst activists from all corners of the movement.”—Ryan MacMichael,

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